tsstamper Wrote:
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> I don't think speed is Hartline's problem. He
> can't consistently get open/separation in crunch
> time. I really like him and think he can do more
> than what he did this year, but not enough to be
> the guy. But I don't think track speed is what's
> holding him up. Honestly one thing I noticed
> about him as I watched him in the latter parts of
> this season is that he seems to fall down pretty
> easily when he's trying to make a move after
> catching the ball.

I think hartline's problem is he's a #2 or #3 WR on a good team. On ours he's the #1 and has to deal with the opponents best DB (sometimes with safety help) every week.

You put a WR or two in front of him on the depth chart so he's getting single coverage from a Nickle or Dime back all day and he becomes a weapon.

tsstamper Wrote:
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> I don't think speed is Hartline's problem. He
> can't consistently get open/separation in crunch
> time. I really like him and think he can do more
> than what he did this year, but not enough to be
> the guy. But I don't think track speed is what's
> holding him up. Honestly one thing I noticed
> about him as I watched him in the latter parts of
> this season is that he seems to fall down pretty
> easily when he's trying to make a move after
> catching the ball.

Actually I think that describes Davon Bess (and Fasano) more than Hartline. One thing I noticed on several of the long throws to Hartline is that he had great separation but the ball was not placed ideally.

I think Bess falls way to often to avoid contact and also falls down after initial contact. One reason why I think he needs to be a 4th or 5th WR. he is not a play maker.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti Wrote:
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> tsstamper Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't think speed is Hartline's problem. He
> > can't consistently get open/separation in
> crunch
> > time. I really like him and think he can do
> more
> > than what he did this year, but not enough to
> be
> > the guy. But I don't think track speed is
> what's
> > holding him up. Honestly one thing I noticed
> > about him as I watched him in the latter parts
> of
> > this season is that he seems to fall down
> pretty
> > easily when he's trying to make a move after
> > catching the ball.
>
> Actually I think that describes Davon Bess (and
> Fasano) more than Hartline. One thing I noticed on
> several of the long throws to Hartline is that he
> had great separation but the ball was not placed
> ideally.
>
> I think Bess falls way to often to avoid contact
> and also falls down after initial contact. One
> reason why I think he needs to be a 4th or 5th WR.
> he is not a play maker.


Yes, to a lesser degree that formula applies to them as well.

Bess would be open all day underneath if he was dealing with a dime or safety all day.

Fasano would be a lethal red zone option in two TE sets if the top TE was a legit receiving option.

It's no accident that hartline got shut out the week after his monster game in Arizona. If teams want to they can take him out of the game. But in most cases they don't worry about him that much. It's better for them to compress the middle of the field and make it harder to run or throw crossing routes then it is to take away the over the top stuff. Partly because we don't connect on hat stuff often enough and partly cause when we do they usually can run our receiver down before he scores.

Hartline will make a GREAT 2nd receiver. That's why Miami MUST get a speedster either in the draft or through FA.

eesti Wrote:
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> Brian Hartline ran a 4.49 at his pro day and all
> everyone can talk about is how we need more speed.


He ran a 4.58 at the scouting combine, and the Ohio surface is known for being a really fast one. And you also see him got caught from behind a lot. He's faster than he gets credit for, but not fast enough to be scary to a defense.

Yes. Players always run faster at their pro days...which is where Mathews was timed at. The point is they are pretty close in speed. Neither is a burner with 4.3 speed.

Getting caught from behind "a lot" is not how I would summarize Hartline. He is definitely not as fast as every CB but sometimes he gets caught because of angles or having to stop, catch the ball, and take off again while the FS is running full bore at him. Not to say he hasn't been caught from behind on occasion.

We still don't know if Mathews is going to outrun anyone because we haven't seen it in only 11 catches. If Jerry Rice has taught us anything it is that speed is not the only thing that matters. James Jones and Greg Jennings are other good examples. He seems to be very similar physically. Jones only has 4.54 speed and Jennings had 4.41 10 years ago. I like his potential.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Agreed eesti, straight line speed is an over-rated stat IMO, it's the ability to get open that matters more. And i'm not suggesting we don't need more speed out of the WR position, I just think people get too caught up in 40 times.

dolphaholic Wrote:
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> Agreed eesti, straight line speed is an over-rated
> stat IMO, it's the ability to get open that
> matters more. And i'm not suggesting we don't need
> more speed out of the WR position, I just think
> people get too caught up in 40 times.

This is precisely why I advocate getting a vet WR over drafting a rookie with a high pick. WR is one of the toughest positions to evaluate coming out of college.

Yes, eesti but John Taylor was more the speed guy that made Rice more effective as a possession receiver. Just like speed guy Mark Duper had his Duriel Harris and later Mark Clayton.

Taylor only had a few good years...3 over 900 yards I believe. He averaged 4.7 TD's a year. The other 6 years were below average while Rice went on to lead the league every year without much help from Taylor. The 49ers were a complete team and had many weapons who made everyones life easier. TE's, RB's, FB's, HOF QB's...

(Another reason we should keep Bush and utilize him like Michael Westbrook, Marshall Faulk and Roger Craig.)

Possession receivers don't usually get multiple 1400 and 1500 yard season as well as an 1800 yard season. Rice was THE play maker who just got targeted more. Sorry I don't consider Rice a possession receiver. He was just able to take short slants to the house time after time. He also had seasons in which his ypc was that of a deep threat...16-20 yards per catch. His first 5 seasons were over 16 ypc. He had like 13 season over 14 ypc.

When I think of possession reciever, I think of OJ McDuffie and maybe Davone Bess....not the king.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

It's all in how you look at it eesti. Rice, as you point out, did not have blazing speed and when he got open (from my old memory) is was because he faked the coverage out of its shoes. He was all pro at that alone without having any help.

Also, the fact that Taylor's stats might not be that high is because when he took off blazing down the field, he was immediately covered opening up the way for Rice to fake the other guys out of their shoes.

My sermon is that we need both.

We need a SPEED guy to compliment pretty good possession receivers we have in Bess and/or Hartline.

I may have given the wrong impression as to my opinion about Mathews. I really like him. I think he fits in perfectly for this offense. He reminds me of Jennings and Jones as I stated.

But yes, Dolphin is on my bad side because of his bashing of Tannehill which is unfounded. I have a problem not thinking he is just a troll.

My whole argument was just that he has 11 catches and Dolphins can envision him as a stud but gives no slack to an inexperienced rookie QB who was supposed to be holding a clip board.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

yeah that is what i assumed since i havent been on this board in a while lol...