Our top Wr is a 4th round draft pick.
Bess is an undrafted FA.
Fasano is next...a 2nd round TE.
Then Bush and Thomas ( RB's)
then Clay FB
THEN a WR...Moore and undrafted FA.


Someone want to tell Ireland that you get what you pay for!

GOTTA draft a WR in the first round.

In fact, since we have 2 second rounders...I would draft WR, CB, WR...just to make sure we get a #1 starter.

My sentiments exactly as posted on another thread. We've got to get a home run hitter WR IN THE FIRST ROUND if you want to make the most of what you believe to be your home run hitter QB.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2012 04:53PM by ChyrenB.

I like Matthews, what little we have seen of him

Terrence Williams of Baylor

Need to sign Mike Wallace

We need to go WR - RB - WR.
We are far from set at RB.
We need a legit power back with hands and speed.

Keenan Allen and Mike Wallace would make a nice 1-2 punch. I also see a huge need at CB, that might have to wait until 2014 to get fully addressed.

Yes and you can't do it all in one off-season. Mike Wallace and Brian Hartline would be one hell of an upgrade as well. Not much chance that a rookie is going to have a better year than Hartline is having this year.

Maybe one WR a year even approaches 1000 yards. Probably closer to .7 WR a year. Many 1st round WRs still take a few years.

We have too many needs than to spend a high draft pick on the 5th or 6th priority like RB. They don't hold the same value as they used to. You just have to find a good one and we may already have one in Lamar Miller. RB's can be found as undrafted FA's and late rounders. Arian Foster, Alfred Morris...etc.

Get a FA WR that can contribute right away then...

1 CB
2a TE
2b WR
3a OL
3b FS

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

WR is my #1 priority....

I like Wallace...but he needs to have a legitimate #2 opposite him. I am not convinced that Hartline is that guy. I love him...but he seems like a possession guy to me.

Ideally...we sign Wallace or Bowe, draft a Terence Williams or Keenan Allen, keep Hartline & Bess...and put those 4 guys on the field.

Our RB's are not 'set'...but it will be hard to evaluate them until we can punish teams for attacking the run with their safety and playing man coverage.

Just out of curiosity, who is your idea of a true number 2?

Hartline is on pace for over 1300 yards so possession receiver?

Don't you think that is putting a lot of stock into WR's to sign a top FA AND spend a top 12 pick on another? Isn't that sort of ignoring other positions of need?

For instance, having two great WR's and no time to throw? or no threat of a running game? Nobody to contend with QB's like Brady etc?

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I still say we'd be safer getting a vet WR via trade or FA than drafting one.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GOTTA draft a WR in the first round.
>
Not a sure thing with the draft. I'd rather trade for or sign a FA vet WR. I think Ireland has done a decent job drafting for need in the 1st round, even though Vontae is now a bust and Jake Long's career may be over. Can't blame Ireland for those.

Your points are all valid...

IMO Hartline lacks downfield speed. He has had great production when our running game is working and teams were playing a variety of coverages. But now that teams have film on Tannehill, they are taking away the stuff that allowed hartline to make big plays. He has great hands and feet. he has the potential to be a #2....and if we have a BIG FAST great HANDS #1 ( Andre Johnson, Dez Bryant, Megatron style) AND we have a solid RB...then Hartline could be very effective.


That being said...

I think we have the OL we need ( re-signing Long could be a factor) But Martin and Jerry will improve, the rest are very good.

So I think if we sign a FA WR and draft a 1st round WR and keep Bess and Hartline ....we will have NO holes on Offense.

QB, OL, WR's, TE ( could be upgraded...but might be great with a stretched field), RB's adequate- to very good once teams fear the deep pass.


On Defence we need a starting CB, run stuffing ILB, and upgrade at Safety.

We will be in a good CAP position so we should be able to re-sign Long and a top flight FA WR as 2 'big ticket' signings, re-sign Hartline modestly, and bring in another 'medium priced FA on D, and then 3-4 guys that may have upside.

Draft a WR, and use the two 2nd rounders, and two 3rd rounders to fill our other key needs. 4 high picks should be sufficient to find 2 starters.

IMO....this off-season ...we have the pieces, picks, and CAP to get it done and make the push!

There are no sure things at any position in the draft. QB is the highest risk. Not all 1st round WR's become league beaters but most 1st round WR's are legitimate #1 Wr's for their team.

I say sign a FA and draft a #1. The Cardinals were great with BOTH Fitzgerald and Boldin....subtract 1...and they become decently ok.

When Marino was setting records he had 2-3 SOLID Wr's ( Duper & Clayton would have been a #1 on any team in the league)

In 1991 we still had Duper, Clayton, Jensen, Banks, Tony Martin and they drafted Randall Hill in the first round. They were making sure that the QB had plenty of targets to spread the ball to and to make it tough for D's to take away the primary target.


We have been listening for years about coaches wanting to improve our 'chunk plays'. Guess how you get those? With WR's who can stretch the field and RB's or TE's that can beat LB's.

We have had too many years under the Parcell's philosophy of no 'Diva's'. We finally have a QB...we have a an OL that can improve...now let's put bullets in the gun.

IMO Hartline has earned a bigger contract. Long has not. I'm not even convinced if he is worth bringing back. I'm not sure if Ireland even believes he is worth it.

Ireland has had time to sign an extension to keep him off the open market and has chosen not to do so. There may just be something wrong physically with Long that is showing up in his play. I noticed on hard Knocks that he looked flabby and when Jake was at his best he was chiseled. Maybe his shoulder injury is preventing him from lifting? Who knows? Ireland I assume.

I think some of the guys on this board were right about Long being history and Martin swithching to LT.

He is definitely not worth 12-15 mil a year to play as he has been. We would be better off signing someone like Ryan Clady or signing a bad ass run blocking RT.

Texas A&M have bookend tackles that are first round projections this year.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WR is my #1 priority....
>
> I like Wallace...but he needs to have a legitimate
> #2 opposite him. I am not convinced that Hartline
> is that guy. I love him...but he seems like a
> possession guy to me.
>
> Ideally...we sign Wallace or Bowe, draft a Terence
> Williams or Keenan Allen, keep Hartline &
> Bess...and put those 4 guys on the field.
>
> Our RB's are not 'set'...but it will be hard to
> evaluate them until we can punish teams for
> attacking the run with their safety and playing
> man coverage.

That's my view as well realist.

Wrs can take time to develop and learn a system.

Just drafting one early next draft doesn't guarantee he'll be a difference maker next year.

I'd sign an impact guy who pushes hartline and bess down the pecking order. Then draft a guy with one of our first 3 picks who can push hartline for the 2nd spot.

Just drafting a guy early on might not improve our offense next year at all, let alone enough.

Sometimes you can find a real steal at the bargain basement sale, but most of the time it's a losing proposition and "getting what you pay for" really fits the situation.

Anytime a team can get a 3rd,4th,5th or lower draft choice who performs like a top 32 pick...that's time to break out the bubbly and celebrate and to thank your lucky stars, so to speak. The Dolphins should be so lucky.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are no sure things at any position in the
> draft. QB is the highest risk. Not all 1st round
> WR's become league beaters but most 1st round WR's
> are legitimate #1 Wr's for their team.
>
> I say sign a FA and draft a #1. The Cardinals were
> great with BOTH Fitzgerald and Boldin....subtract
> 1...and they become decently ok.
>
> When Marino was setting records he had 2-3 SOLID
> Wr's ( Duper & Clayton would have been a #1 on any
> team in the league)
>
> In 1991 we still had Duper, Clayton, Jensen,
> Banks, Tony Martin and they drafted Randall Hill
> in the first round. They were making sure that the
> QB had plenty of targets to spread the ball to and
> to make it tough for D's to take away the primary
> target.
>
>
> We have been listening for years about coaches
> wanting to improve our 'chunk plays'. Guess how
> you get those? With WR's who can stretch the
> field and RB's or TE's that can beat LB's.
>
> We have had too many years under the Parcell's
> philosophy of no 'Diva's'. We finally have a
> QB...we have a an OL that can improve...now let's
> put bullets in the gun.

Actually the "miss" rate on wr's has historically been as bad or worse than qb.

This was a big topic of discussion back when Saban took Ronnie brown over Braylon Edwards.

Not sure how the last 5 or 6 drafts have impacted the numbers but over the last 25 years WR might be the toughest position to get right in the first round.

Hartline is an enigma to me. His career YPC and each season are in the 15+ range. He's very consistent there. He's also frustratingly consistent in TD catches per season (1 each of the last seasons). He is fast enough to get behind defenses sometimes and is WIDE open a lot for a guy without elite speed. I think he has a few moves he's really good at, and sometimes they just work really well. Great hands, great body control. But, he's also incredibly inconsistent. Two games after he set the club record for yards in a game, he played a whole game without catching a pass. And he has games like that (or close) every year. Last year he had a 5-game stretch when in 4 of those games he had just one catch. I will say that this year he's posted a lot more 8, 9, 12 catch games where in the past it was 2, 3, 4. And, at the end of close games, I don't recall him putting himself in a position to make the plays that make the difference. I think he's improved and barring injury should have a career year in terms of catches and yards. But, winning games is about putting points on the board and he does it very rarely. I'm with Realist in wondering if he's even a true #2 receiver. When we had Marshall, Hartline didn't seem to take advantage of the attention that was paid to Marshall instead of him. He'd be an absolutely killer #4 with Bess in the slot and two strong starting receivers.

Lots of rambling to basically say "I don't get him...very good physical skills (not dominant, but far from horrible) that show up for a play or two here or there, but unable to put it all together to make a truly meaningful impact."

I'll add that if we don't resign him, he's just the type of Welker player that I think the Pats can plug into their system and QB and somehow enable him to put it all together.

Perfectly said.

And I think we need to keep him because he would give us a very dangerous 4 WR West Coast set.....AND....to keep him from the Pats. They have been rustling through the waiver heaps the last couple years trying to find value WR's. They could sign him cheap and he would add tremendous value to their team.

If we had Wallace going deep, a young rookie speedster opposite him going deep....how many teams have nickel and dime DB's that could cover Bess and Hartline? Not many. Add Bush in the backfield...and you have an immediately potent offense.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perfectly said.
>
> And I think we need to keep him because he would
> give us a very dangerous 4 WR West Coast
> set.....AND....to keep him from the Pats. They
> have been rustling through the waiver heaps the
> last couple years trying to find value WR's. They
> could sign him cheap and he would add tremendous
> value to their team.
>
> If we had Wallace going deep, a young rookie
> speedster opposite him going deep....how many
> teams have nickel and dime DB's that could cover
> Bess and Hartline? Not many. Add Bush in the
> backfield...and you have an immediately potent
> offense.

Exactly

I would agree with that but the question is...Is it realistic to think we can do both? Field a rookie top draft choice and land a top FA?

I think it is more likely we do one or the other.

Right now Hartline is the only member of the receiving corp that gets double teamed.

Add Wallace to the mix and we have a deep threat, a deceivingly fast #2 and a quick and crafty slot guy as a possession receiver/short route runner. Bess can stick to his strength which is shorter routes.

Just by adding Wallace, we have freed up Hartline for single coverage. He is on pace for 1300 yards as the #1. He is more than capable IMO as a #2 just for the fact the Wallace will draw coverage to his side. Don't forget that Hartline is having this kind of year after missing all of training camp and losing 25 pounds in the process.

Now...that being said, I would almost rather add a TE (Notre Dame) to the mix than a WR and just go with Wallace, Hartline, Bess and Tyler Eifert (6'6 250). We still need a red zone target.

We will be picking around 12-15 and he is project to go late 1st round. We either trade down and take him with a 1st or trade up (will cost a 2nd and a 3rd)....or we sign a FA TE like Fred Davis or Jared Cook (4.49 40& 775 yards in 2011).

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2012 09:44AM by eesti.

The way its going and from the looks of our remaining game....in which jacksonville is the only winnable game id say we pick about 8th or 9th again.

We will be able to get that deep threat we need in the first.

And i wouldnt be mad if we go Tend in the second and OL in the third.

Then corner. But we might be able to get a corner to compliment smith in free agency imo...We have a lot of cap space.

1. Receiver
2. TE
3. OL
4. corner
5. receiver again
6. we need another DE to rush the passer. Cameron wake is the only consistent passrusher we have.
7. OL or LB

...........I hope we dont win another game but at the same time i hope they look competitive and the real deal keeps improving.

Every game we win from now on is another slot down in every round.

I will watch every game left and hope they play well but i will not take it so hard any more if we lose.

Those Overtime games we lost were killers.

_____________________________________________________________________

The season is over folks.

eesti, I not only thinks its possible to sign a FA WR and draft one but I think it's necessary.

The drafting part is easy. We have the ammo to move up or the extra picks to go WR early and get a guy we want, not just one who falls to us.

The key is the free agent. It's easy to toss around names of guys who's contracts are up this year but not all of them make it to FA.

The new CBA makes it very expensive to franchise people, especially more than once, so it's no more likely than ever that guys who fail to work out long term deals are going to hit the market.

This is a lucky year for us if we want to spend on a FA WR. There are a couple of guys about to hit the market from teams that don't use the franchise tag often, if at all. And both are a good fit for what we want to do offensively.

If you can land Wallace or Jennings then I say do it. Then draft a guy in the first two rounds to give you depth and an upgrade in talent over bess and hartline.

What I meant by realistic is....Do you think Ireland invests in a high draft choice after signing a huge FA like Wallace?

Also...I would hate to trade away picks to move up for a WR...like you said...very risky picks.

The reason I am optimistic about Wallace is just based on Pits history of letting FA's go instead of giving big contracts. They already gave the identical contract offered to Wallace...to Brown when MW held out. I'm not sure they invest even more money in Wallace to boot. He got the 5 year 42.5 mil deal that Wallace already turned down. I think they just draft another WR. They are pretty good at it.

Sam:

One thing we should all be rooting for is Indy to lose many more games since we have their 2nd and 6th picks in the 2013 draft.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti...Sam:

One thing we should all be rooting for is Indy to lose many more games since we have their 2nd and 6th picks in the 2013 draft.



No doubt. Agreed.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I meant by realistic is....Do you think
> Ireland invests in a high draft choice after
> signing a huge FA like Wallace?
>

Ireland has a history of doubling down on positions in the draft.

I don't think this is really any different.

At the end of the day we need two more wr's better than what we have.

If Ireland is going to attach his career to Tannehill....and he has...he's smart enough to get him the weapons he needs to be successful.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eesti Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What I meant by realistic is....Do you think
> > Ireland invests in a high draft choice after
> > signing a huge FA like Wallace?
> >
>
> Ireland has a history of doubling down on
> positions in the draft.
>
HAD a history. He hasn't done that since the 2010 draft. He also had a history of hitting on only one of those 2...and it was usually the EARLIER pick that was the bust:

G: Sean Murphy/Donald Thomas (Murphy as a bust)
CB: Vontae Davis/Sean Smith (Davis is a bust)
DE/DT: Philip Merling/Kendall Langford (Merling was a bust)
WR: Pat Turner/Brian Hartline (Turner was a bust)

Also, unfortunately, Donald Thomas and Kendall Langford don't play for us anymore, but are having decent careers elsewhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2012 02:09PM by montequi.

If you sign Wallace....you still draft a guy in the 1st round...at the 12th or 15th slot...they get paid...so YES we can afford to do both.

In 2010 we signed Dansby to a huge deal that avg. $8.4 Mill, we acquired Marshall and gave him a contract that paid him $9.5 Mill, and we drafted Odrick 28th and paid him $20 Mill over 5 years ($4mil/yr)

Last year Michael Floyd was the 12th pick and he signed 4yrs for $10 mill. ($2.5 mil/yr)


Heck...Tannehill got 4 yrs $12 mill. So Odrick at 28th is getting $1.6Mill/yr more than Tanny at the 8th pick.


So with the new rookie scale...we can afford Wallace and trading up to get the best WR in the draft. ( not suggesting it...but we can afford it).

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Odrick signed a 5 year 13 mil contract as far as I
> know.
>
> So with the new rookie scale...we can afford
> Wallace and trading up to get the best WR in the
> draft. ( not suggesting it...but we can afford
> it).
>
> Maybe if those were the only holes we had. Don't
> forget about having to pay a starting LT, DT,
> 2xCB, FS and TE next year. Jake Long, Randy
> Starks, Tony McD, Sean Smith, Fasano, Bush and
> Chris Clemons are all UFA's. Not sure Marshall is
> kept at 5.3 mil a year. He hasn't played that well
> even when he played.
>
> LT=8-10 mil
> DT=5-6 mil
> CB=8 mil
> CB=6 mil
> TE=4mil
> RB=5mil
> FS=2-3 mil
>
> There's 42 mil right there before we even sign a
> WR and OL. We still don't know the exact number we
> will have under the cap next year but it is now
> rumored to be between 40-45 mil.
>
> I just think you have to hit on the first rounder
> and he has to contribute right away. Lets see how
> things unfold once we get closer to the draft
> after the combine. Not sure if there are any
> "can't miss" prospects at WR this year...like AJ
> Green.

I think those numbers are on the high side of the estimate.

At LT...if we let long leave then Martin is our LT or we'll draft one and sign a veteran backup.

So that could easily be $2-4mill for two guys instead of instead of 8-10 for one.

You don't need two starting CB's. Marshall is already on the books for 5mill. He's likely getting one of those spots. We will need a couple of young guys in the draft.

We arent paying a RB $5 mill again. Bush is gone or he's taking a hefty paycut. If he's gone, Miller will start.

Marshall was originally signed to play to slot/nickle. I would move him back there. He was not very good even when he played on the outside.

As far as LT and RB...see "Our new GM" thread.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers