realist Wrote:
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> Now if he could work with an OC that has some
> balls? he might really develop.


Maybe a QB coach who's actually played QB before?

Rothlisberger fumbled a few and threw an INT against the colts.Almost costing Pitt the game. Brady threw 4 INT's. Brees had 2 INT's against the Texans. Fitzpatrick also threw a pair of INT's.
I've seen more than a few doggy throws & mental mistakes this past weekend.

Stuff happens. It is a competitve league.

I think Henne is a bit overanalyzed.

sleekdogg Wrote:
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> Rothlisberger fumbled a few and threw an INT
> against the colts.Almost costing Pitt the game.
> Brady threw 4 INT's. Brees had 2 INT's against the
> Texans. Fitzpatrick also threw a pair of INT's.
> I've seen more than a few doggy throws & mental
> mistakes this past weekend.
>
> Stuff happens. It is a competitve league.
>
> I think Henne is a bit overanalyzed.

Henne needs a comeback win. Henne needs a go-ahead score late in the 4th quarter. Just ONE would go a long way for his confidence, as well as our confidence in him. Can he do it? He's running out of time to show it.

realist Wrote:
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> henn has shown a lot of improvement. I love
> watching him scramble and get the first down, or
> keep his eyes downfield. His accuracy is much
> better.
> His timing is better. He is reading more of the
> field.
>
> But here are my caveats...or things he has to
> fix.
>
> A) THE RED ZONE.
>
> i) Whether it is play-calling or Henne I can't say
> for sure...but there is no misdirection, no
> believable pump fakes, no looking off the safety.
> He needs to keep the same poise he has when he is
> standing on his own 40yd line.
>
> ii) He rifles the ball too hard in the redzone.
> The balls are harder to catch or are completely
> out of range of any target in the vicinity. Back
> to poise. He needs to breathe in and then throw
> with the right velocity.
>
> iii) Marshall has dropped some balls, but they
> were all the above type. Henne needs to throw jump
> balls to Brandon Marshall. Yesterday they had
> 5'11" 190lb Haden guarding 6'4" 230lb Marshall.
> Instead of a crossing route...run the freaking
> fade! Throw the jump ball in the corner. Or throw
> the outside shoulder that is always there. Henne
> likes to blister it down the middle. He must learn
> to throw the touch fade ball.

A couple of things. Marshall's drops are not as you described. Against the Patriots, he dropped a ball that hit him between the numbers, not holding on to the ball when hit by a much smaller defender. Against the Texans, he dropped a perfectly thrown 21 yard pass that hit him in stride, in both hands, thrown with great touch. Marshall simply looked down to see where his feet were (and he was 5 yards from the back of the endzone), and he dropped the ball. Against the Browns, Marshall got no separation from Haden, and with only two receivers in the pattern, Henne had no option but to throw it high and hard. And it went right between Marshall's hands. This guys makes $10M a year to catch the ball. Let's not make excuses for him. He does not have good hands. He has ranked in the top 10 for dropped passes every year since he became a starter. That includes catching passes from Jay Cutler, Kyle Orton, and Chad Henne. It's not Henne's issue. It's Marshall's. And it's been an issue his entire career.

During the offseason, Marshall admitted that fades are not something he is good at. He said that his game is not like Calvin Johnson or Andre Johnson, in terms of throwing it up and letting him go get it. Over the last 2 seasons, we have seen a few fades thrown his way where Marshall never leaves his feet. This was most notable in last year's first Jets game. You can't catch the fade if you don't jump.

For what it's worth, Henne threw great fades to Braylon Edwards at Michigan.

On the deep sideline passes, all QBs are taught to throw over the outside shoulder of the receiver. It's about putting it where the corner can't make a play on the ball without going through the receiver. That's where those deep sideline passes are supposed to go. If you watched the replay of the throw to Gates, the ball was right even with the sideline, but Gates's body was already out of bounds. If Gates is running that route a step further inside, that pass may be perfectly over his outside shoulder. I stress "may." We really don't know. The corner was using the sideline as an extra defender, he forced Gates so close to the sideline that he had no chance to keep his feet in bounds. For all we know, the receiver coaches may look at that on film and tell Gates that he can't let the defender force him that close to the boundary.

It should also be noted that Henne is among the league leaders in pass plays over 20 yards this season, with 16 in three games.

Mark, I love your analytical view on things. The stats you bring are awesome and much needed to this board.


But, be real for 1 second here. Henne couldnt get us 10 yards to win a game. He couldnt do it! COME ON!!!

6 games last year he had the ball in his hands on the final drive and could not win 1 of those games.

The guy is not the real deal. Get off his dick, Mark.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

the problem is seeing the forest for the trees. like sporano talking about henne's 10 plus plays when the minus play costs us the game. results is what matters and henne is unable to lead the team to a win when it matters, and plays at his worst when we get inside the 20. sure he does some good things statistically but rarely when it counts the most

Exactly.

Mark will come on here with stats showing Henne's completitions, and drops by recievers.

But, he will never show his red zone numbers, winning %, how he fares on game ending drives, and 3rd down conversion %.

Those are the numbers that really matter. And Henne sucks in those areas.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

my view and i am admitdely not a football technician as soem on this board but henne is about the only thing right on this team...no he's not peyton but i think he is eli to put it simple terms.. i was stoked when nolan came on board but this defense is the weakness in this team so far this season..not saying henne is a qb worthy of 3-0 but he has played to 2-1 status at this point.. i personally like sporano but think that players like him too much and that the problem.. this team has no passion and make it hard for me as an out of town fan to want to be loyal(im a sucker and wont fade)but they play like they are collecting checks which is a shame..a s someone who runs a crew of guys they play liek the rest of the work force.. a few guys who have pride and play with self integrity and th erest who im sure want to win but dont play liek winning is soley their resposiblity..imo that more than anything seperates the elite teams

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
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> Exactly.
>
> Mark will come on here with stats showing Henne's
> completitions, and drops by recievers.
>
> But, he will never show his red zone numbers,
> winning %, how he fares on game ending drives, and
> 3rd down conversion %.
>
> Those are the numbers that really matter. And
> Henne sucks in those areas.


That's not exactly true. I pointed out that in 2010, Henne had a passer rating of 89.1 in the redzone.

At this point, the entire team plays tight in the redzone, including the coaches. It is partly a mental thing. But, please, the original post in this thread is blaming Henne for Marshall's drops in the endzone. That is ridiculous. And if Marshall simply catches those 3 passes, no one would be talking about our redzone struggles. Those 3 drops have led to 2 FG and 1 missed FG. So, we could have had 21 points, and instead we got 6. And that has nothing to do with Henne.

So far this season, Henne is 8 for 21 in the red zone, with 4 TD and 1 INT. That's a passer rating of 66.1. Terrible, right? If Marshall does his job, Henne would be 11 for 21 with 7 TD and 1 INT. That would make for a passer rating of 97.9. That's the difference those 3 drops Marshall would make.

Like Aqua, I love your contributions to the board D-mark, but i've seen Henne air-mail 3/4 balls in the end zone to the 2nd or 3rd row. He's not the problem, but he's damn sure not the solution either.

He's getting a bit of a pass this year because the D sucks so bad, if the D was playing up to par and we were still 0-3/1-2, everyone would be all over Henne.

Like I said...if the errors are scattershot all over the place...then yeah...stuff happens. Everybody has an off day.

BUT the stuff I commented on has been true in all 3 games this year, and was true last year, and the year before that.

Those are patterns that need to be addressed.

I agree that Marshall had some drops that were easy, but the Browns one was not a jump ball it was in the middle in the route. That is not what I was referring to.

yes he did throw jump balls to Edwards...he needs to give Marshall the same opportunity.

I've coached football for 20 years. Yes the QB is taught to put it on the outside shoulder....but if the QB is frequently putting it 2yards out of bounds but rarely 2 yards inside....it is not a case of poor accuracy....it is a case of either being afraid and overcompensating to the outside...or trying to use his upper body more than his hips and legs and pulling the ball across his chest too much. he needs to practice putting it right over the WR's head in stride...that way if he pulls or psychologically overcompensates it isn't 2 yards out of bounds. You don't see the top QB's doing that.

NO the original post was not blaming Henne for Marshalls drops at all. I acknowledged Marshalls drops.

There were many points in the original post, the Marshall issue being just one of them.

My original Marshall point was specifically referrencing RED ZONE drives. The drops that came from passes outside of the redzone are totally on Marshall. the Redzone drops are also on Marshall, but, those drops did not come via jump balls. They came via passes to the inside which are easier to defend if you are a little shorter than the WR.

Specifically I want to see jump balls thrown to the DB's outside where the WR has position and can use their body the shield and height advantage. Other teams do it. We have not done as successfully. In the Texans game Marshall faked in, and wanted to go to the wide open outside...but Henne threw it inside. Marshall read it correctly, Henne did not.

Henne overthrows guys in the redzone because he is afraid of throwing a pick. he needs to be patient, breathe and throw the right pass to the right guy. 5'10 vs 6'4" is a no brainer.

Plus jump balls draw Pass Interference penalties more frequently because the guys aren't streaking by..the establish position and go up. The only way Haden prevents the catch ( on a well thrown ball) is PI or a perfectly timed, superhuman jump.

I was exceptionally disappointed in Henne not moving us 10 yards in 30+ seconds with a timeout to put us in position for a field goal. However, the routes (playcalling?) were incredibly weird. We didn't need to throw to the sidelines - could have used the middle of the field with the timeout. We didn't need to throw a long arching pass down the sideline.

Reggie Bush and Daniel Thomas are both good-to-great receivers out of the backfield (Bush looked very open on 1st down). Bess knows how to get open in the slot instead of 25 horizontal yards away. Fasano has a knack for finding a seam. Hartline was a hot receiver that day and had made some nice short catches in addition to his 2 long ones. Heck, I wouldn't have crucified them for a run attempt with Thomas going strong.

These plays would have left a long FG, but would have given us a good chance. I didn't understand the playcalling. However, Henne threw a couple bad passes among the 4.

The drops by Marshall in the EZ certainly have impacted Henne's rating and have probably cost us at least 1 game.

realist Wrote:
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> NO the original post was not blaming Henne for
> Marshalls drops at all. I acknowledged Marshalls
> drops.
>
> There were many points in the original post, the
> Marshall issue being just one of them.
>
> My original Marshall point was specifically
> referrencing RED ZONE drives. The drops that came
> from passes outside of the redzone are totally on
> Marshall. the Redzone drops are also on Marshall,
> but, those drops did not come via jump balls. They
> came via passes to the inside which are easier to
> defend if you are a little shorter than the WR.
>

Marshall only has one drop outside the endzone. It was on a bubble screen. The dropped TD he had against the Texans was to the outside, not a jump ball, but one that hit him in stride over the defender. Against the Patriots, he simply did not hang on to a ball that he had in his midsection. At 230 lbs, Marshall needs to win those battles.

> Specifically I want to see jump balls thrown to
> the DB's outside where the WR has position and
> can use their body the shield and height
> advantage. Other teams do it. We have not done as
> successfully.

Marshall said early in the offseason that he is not good at jump balls in the endzone. He specifically cited Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson as guys that he is not like in the redzone. Over the last two seasons, we have seen several of these attempts where Marshall never leaves his feet. It's like he doesn't judge them very well.

>In the Texans game Marshall faked
> in, and wanted to go to the wide open
> outside...but Henne threw it inside. Marshall read
> it correctly, Henne did not.
>

You are 100% guessing here. Marshall is known to improvise routes, often at the QB's expense. This play could have been a pure slant, with Marshall supposed to cut across the face of the defender. Marshall is 6'4, 230, so he has a huge size advantage over almost any corner. You can have him run a route like that, and with his size, he should win that battle for position every time. Henne may have thrown that ball exactly where it's supposed to be, and it may be 100% Marshall's fault for improvising a route. We simply don't know, because we don't what play was called. So, for either of us to say one of them read the play correctly and one didn't, we are guessing. During the game, the announcers were critical of Marshall's route on that play.

> Henne overthrows guys in the redzone because he is
> afraid of throwing a pick. he needs to be patient,
> breathe and throw the right pass to the right guy.
> 5'10 vs 6'4" is a no brainer.

And who is 5'10 that he is throwing to? Hartline is 6'2. He has rarely targeted Bess in the endzone this season. Against the Texans, Bess got 3 redzone targets, but none in the endzone. Henne has had a total of 21 pass attempts in the red zone, and 7 have gone to Marshall.

>
> Plus jump balls draw Pass Interference penalties
> more frequently because the guys aren't streaking
> by..the establish position and go up. The only way
> Haden prevents the catch ( on a well thrown ball)
> is PI or a perfectly timed, superhuman jump.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I've coached football for 20 years. Yes the QB is
> taught to put it on the outside shoulder....but if
> the QB is frequently putting it 2yards out of
> bounds but rarely 2 yards inside....it is not a
> case of poor accuracy....it is a case of either
> being afraid and overcompensating to the
> outside...or trying to use his upper body more
> than his hips and legs and pulling the ball across
> his chest too much. he needs to practice putting
> it right over the WR's head in stride...that way
> if he pulls or psychologically overcompensates it
> isn't 2 yards out of bounds. You don't see the
> top QB's doing that.


You may have not seen the endzone replay of the throw to Gates. When they showed it, the ball was not out of bounds at all. But, Gates let his entire body get out of bounds. And Gates was not open, not by any measure. Had the ball been any further inside, the defender would have made the play easily. As it was, it was a contested catch. And in a post from a few minutes ago, you can see the quote from Sparano about Gates' positioning on the play.

I think all of our collective problem with Henne can be summed up in one word "Clutch" ..this guy has not shown a thing in Crunch time, and it has become the number one reason why people are hating on him to this day. If he'd only bring us back just one time from a deficit?! This is how we got spoiled with Marino.

I think the balls was way out of bounds when he caught it...thats what i saw.

samsam3738 Wrote:
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> I think the balls was way out of bounds when he
> caught it...thats what i saw.

Which was just about all Henne could do without getting it intercepted.