Will running a WCO offense against our defense make them better able to compete against the likes of NE?

I like the aspect of being able to dictate pace to other defenses, but I also like the conditioning it does for our defense and the ability to not get freaked out when NE goes to a no huddle.

Thoughts?

It's hard to say. It really depends on how good both the defense and offense are talent and coaching-wise. Remember when Marino used to punish our defense in training camp? Did that make the defense any better??? Remember when the offense couldn't score against the defense during Wanny's reign? Did that make the offense better, or did it make the defense worse to play against such a putrid offense?

If we get to the point where we truly have an effective offense...and, yet, during practice the offense and defense play each other even, then that SHOULD mean we have a pretty good defense. On the other hand, it may just mean that our defense knows all the strengths and weaknesses of our offense...which they undoubtedly will just from the fact that they'll practice against them all year.

Well I get your point, but so far as I hear it the defense is punishing the offense, and also getting in a lot better shape in doing so.

There is room however for your point if this offense is not executing well then we don't really get the same drill as running against a NE offense, but do at least get used to dealing with the pace.

Its also hard to tell anything before they get the pads on. Whole different story for both conditioning and execution.

*** I hope this offense lights the jets defense up!

No. The WCO will not make us better on D.

What will make us better is being better conditioned and more prepared to face the no huddle.

Personally I think our offense has to learn the WCO first to even think about running the no huddle. If they can't get the WCO mastered then the hurry up is absurd. Just means we will make mistakes/turnovers at a faster pace.

That being said, we will be in 10x better shape to start the year than we were in 2011....even if we only run it in training camp.

I feel sorry for anyone that reports to camp out of shape. They will be hurting at the start of TC.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

What New England does well (and something we did well under Shula) is use the players they have and fit a system around them. Some would say that Bellichick has a huge ego, but I see it differently. He doesn't try to imprint a system that he is an expert at on players, regardless if they can play in it or not. Rather "his" system is dictated by the players he has year to year. This is what make New England's offense good year in and year out, no matter the coach or personelle.

Install a system for the sake of a system is meaningless. The WCO won't make us better. Realizing we have players that can execute the WCO and then installing it will.

I'm not sure we have those players. Unfortunately, we have a coach who has a hammer as his only tool, and seems to see the offense as a giant nail. It will take a few years to see if this actually works.

If we don't go 3 and out on every set of downs..........otherwise they better be in shape.

> I'm not sure we have those players. Unfortunately, we have a coach who has a hammer as his only tool, and seems to see the offense as a giant nail. It will take a few years to see if this actually works.

Wow, you sure seem to see life thru a prism of "glass half full"

I'm extremely pleased to see us changing this offense top something with some sizzle. The league has changed (more pass happy) and we haven't.

So now when we get focused on an offensive minded approach you criticize Philbin as a one tool (hammer).

Not sure why you are so sour on him, but suffice to say ... we'll agree to disagree. I'd say we just got rid of a slow minded plodding HC, that restricted the talent we have with his own limitations. Sorry to say but Philbin strikes me as just the opposite. He's taking a far more complicated approach and kicking up the conditioning at the same time.

The plkayers are excited and once the timing and receivers / QBs get in sync its gonna be a blast!

Get with the program dude it gonna be a fun ride this year.

Phinjim Wrote:
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> > I'm not sure we have those players.
> Unfortunately, we have a coach who has a hammer as
> his only tool, and seems to see the offense as a
> giant nail. It will take a few years to see if
> this actually works.
>
> Wow, you sure seem to see life thru a prism of
> "glass half full"
>
> I'm extremely pleased to see us changing this
> offense top something with some sizzle. The
> league has changed (more pass happy) and we
> haven't.
>
> So now when we get focused on an offensive minded
> approach you criticize Philbin as a one tool
> (hammer).
>
> Not sure why you are so sour on him, but suffice
> to say ... we'll agree to disagree. I'd say we
> just got rid of a slow minded plodding HC, that
> restricted the talent we have with his own
> limitations. Sorry to say but Philbin strikes me
> as just the opposite. He's taking a far more
> complicated approach and kicking up the
> conditioning at the same time.
>
> The plkayers are excited and once the timing and
> receivers / QBs get in sync its gonna be a blast!
>
> Get with the program dude it gonna be a fun ride
> this year.

No problems dude.

The WCO is all Philbin knows, and so that is why we got it. I'm not sure we have the personell up front to run it. This OL is still built for a power running football club - minus the power RB. I would be real surprised to see them open the passing lanes necessary to make the WCO "sizzle".

We at least have one WCO QB in Gerrard, and I think he'll start because of it. But a second tier WCO QB and a scat back does not make a great WCO. Hartline is the only healthy WR that runs the sharp routes, and I'm not sure Bess will ever be the same after his injury.

Maybe the WCO will work in Miami in a few years, but I don't see it this year. You may think I'm "glass half empty", but I'm just being realistic. The only reason we have a WCO right is the coach, and a system without the right personell doesn't really work.

> Maybe the WCO will work in Miami in a few years, but I don't see it this year. You may think I'm "glass half empty", but I'm just being realistic. The only reason we have a WCO right is the coach, and a system without the right personell doesn't really work.


I guess I think we have a lot of even if not all the peices to make this WCO work in Miami. I know that its time to kick up the offensive side of the ball. last 3 years have been pathetic offensively.

So bottom line I see us having only upside potential on the offensive side of the ball. Jake Long is a player, and will adjust, and were adding new talent on the OL also. I have confidence that whether it is all perfect personnel or not, that it will be waaaaay better than what we've had, and will continue to get better, as we add a few more pieces.

Whenever I hear WCO, I just can't help but think that the architect of that offense was the coach that beat us in our last (and Marino's only) Superbowl. I used to hate the WCO because it was associated with Walsh and Montana. Now we're going to be running it.

Wow montequi thats a good ways back ... we obviously don't have the Dan and marks bros anymore, so its about time to roll with the changes.

The rules and the league are sooo much more for the passing game, time for the phins to get on board and make the offense something for defenses to worry about.

Just say no to the 3 point fist pump!

Phinjim Wrote:
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> I have confidence that whether it is all perfect
> personnel or not, that it will be waaaaay better
> than what we've had, and will continue to get
> better, as we add a few more pieces.

Agree it will be better. Waaaaay better? Not this year.

I don't think running a WCO will have much impact on the D. What it will do is allow the Dolphins to take better advantage of the South Florida heat in wearing opponents out. I've thought the Dolphins have gotten away from that now since Don Shula retired.

cshashaty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think running a WCO will have much impact
> on the D. What it will do is allow the Dolphins to
> take better advantage of the South Florida heat in
> wearing opponents out. I've thought the Dolphins
> have gotten away from that now since Don Shula
> retired.


Actually, since JJ retired. JJ loved to work his players hard in the summer, and - like Shula - his teams always won the September home games. It was Wanny that started losing them. The first time I saw this was a last minute loss to the Titans. I don't think we've won half of them since.

That said, I don't think the WCO is a panacea. Having the right players and hard work is the only way to win in the NFL. I don't know if the players fit the WCO quite yet. Maybe in a few years, but I'm not expecting much this year.

Just running a type of offense doesnt help a defense... But being successful on offense, and giving the defense a rest will help the defense the most, not the scheme... Success is more important then the scheme....

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Perhaps semantics of cause and effect but I think running the scheme makes a lot of difference.

1. Agree that in recent years we've been slow to start and IMHO "out of shape" at the season's start. Thus no advantage when teams came down here. Under shula, teams hated it, and we were at advantage.

2. WCO is only a part of the scheme Philbin is pushing, it is also the up-tempo pace that makse the WCO effective for both offensive and defensive conditioning.

- Thus the defense will benefit when dealing with other offenses that push that pace on them (like NE does when they go to no huddle) affecting both conditioning and the ability to substitute players needing rest or better sutied for the play.

- Likelwise the offense gets used to a pace that can wear down defenses. This all is predicated on the idea that your offense (WCO) executes successfully. Else they are three and out and hand the ball over without wearing anyone down.

PhinJim,
I think you are missing the point a bit, if you run a fast paced WCo offense but go 3 and out alot, then you would be in fact hurting your defense, becasue you would be putting them back on the field at a faster rate so to speak with less rest time... A defense benefits from long drives by the teams offense, where they can rest, and spending less and less of that 60 minute clock on the field. The only way that happens is if the offense is successful in orchestrating long drives... The WCO and up tempo could be the defenses enemy as much as their friend, depending on its success.. The scheme is irrelevant to the defense, it is how good the offense is at moving the ball that has the greatest impact on the teams defense.

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PhinJim,
> I think you are missing the point a bit, if you
> run a fast paced WCo offense but go 3 and out
> alot, then you would be in fact hurting your
> defense, becasue you would be putting them back on
> the field at a faster rate so to speak with less
> rest time... A defense benefits from long drives
> by the teams offense, where they can rest, and
> spending less and less of that 60 minute clock on
> the field. The only way that happens is if the
> offense is successful in orchestrating long
> drives... The WCO and up tempo could be the
> defenses enemy as much as their friend, depending
> on its success.. The scheme is irrelevant to the
> defense, it is how good the offense is at moving
> the ball that has the greatest impact on the teams
> defense.

Actually, a well-run WCO can be a ball-control offense OR a quick high-powered offense. That's why it's still around. It's a good scheme. The WCO depends primarily on short passes with the pass leading to the run (rather than the other way around). It's fairly simple to shorten up passes (and not going out-of-bounds) and call more runs, slowing things down and eating up the clock.

Otherwise, I agree with your statement that the scheme is irrelevant to the preparation of the defense. The only thing it might do is make the defense a little more effective against other WCO teams.

Crowder52
I really didn't miss the point at all, as I stated at the end of my post that it is all predicated on a well executed offense. note below.

Also as recapped well by Monteque, WCO can be an effective ball control offense. I think the low risk short passes to speed backs like Lamar and Bush are going to give defenses fits. (Low int risk and high potential for YAC., also keeps the clock running.

Phinjim from prior post above:
>This all is predicated on the idea that your offense (WCO) executes successfully. Else they are three and out and hand the ball over without wearing anyone down.

**********************
Lastly, the up-tempo pace will IMHO benefit the fins in two ways.

1. The defense will become accustomed to fast pace and no huddle offenses like NE, from practicing against it, and

2. Both the offense and defense will be in better shape because of working thru the uptempo pace, in a hoit and humid environment. Shopuld translate into and advantage during September

Phinjim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder52
> I really didn't miss the point at all, as I stated
> at the end of my post that it is all predicated on
> a well executed offense. note below.

SO really it doesnt matter the scheme, as long as the offense executes it well, it could be the run and shoot, spread, power formations or wildcat for that matter, as long as the chains moves that is all that matters, everything else doesnt matter... As you said it is all predicated on a well executed offense, any well executed offense at that... running the WCO is inconsequential to making our defense better, the question that was asked...., that is what I think you miss the point on, based on the question alone.......

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

> SO really it doesnt matter the scheme, as long as the offense executes it well, it could be the run and shoot, spread, power formations or wildcat for that matter, as long as the chains moves that is all that matters, everything else doesnt matter... As you said it is all predicated on a well executed offense, any well executed offense at that... running the WCO is inconsequential to making our defense better, the question that was asked...., that is what I think you miss the point on, based on the question alone.......

LOL - Pls don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't say scheme doesn't matter. I think it does.

The comments above refer to response to you suggesting that I missed the point of advantage to the defense for getting a rest.

That was only one sentence of other advantages of WCO scheme on conditioning, and defensive preparation along with using an up-tempo pace.

No matter the system, an NFL player needs to be in shape. I'm not sure what makes the WCO so special.

DolfanKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No matter the system, an NFL player needs to be in
> shape. I'm not sure what makes the WCO so special.


He's not talking about the west coast offense as being fast he's talking about the decision to go no huddle all game and run as many plays as possible.

Its a philosophical thing more than an x & o thing.

> No matter the system, an NFL player needs to be in shape. I'm not sure what makes the WCO so special.

This we agree on! Problem is, Sparano did not have his team in shape in September. Thus was no advantage in September heat, and also likely part of the 0-7 start.

All of the players have noticed the difference and commented on two common themes: The new offense forces faster thinking and being in shape.

That to me makes WCO, and Philbin's up-tempo use of the WCO special as it relates to past coaching in Miami.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DolfanKing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No matter the system, an NFL player needs to be
> in
> > shape. I'm not sure what makes the WCO so
> special.
>
>
> He's not talking about the west coast offense as
> being fast he's talking about the decision to go
> no huddle all game and run as many plays as
> possible.
>
> Its a philosophical thing more than an x & o
> thing.

The WCO isn't primarily a no huddle offense. It is a ball control, time of possession offense (until the end of a half). I think some are confusing WCO with the "run and shoot" or "fun and gun".

When they say WCO is "fast" and "uptempo" they mean the speed at which the play develops. The one thing the WCO does well - what I do like about it - is that the time from the snap to something happening is very quick. This is what people mean by fast and uptempo. But between plays, typically everyone goes back to the huddle and tries to take as much time off the clock as they can.

What we should expect is a lot of short, well timed passes and we need QBs that are quick thinkers and deadly accurate under 10-15 yards - because they must deliver the ball in heavy traffic.

While I'd agree Tannebaum is a quick thinker, I'm concerned about accuracy part. Inaccurate WCO QBs make pick 6 WCO QBs. I'm also concerned about the WR - bad route running WCO WR make inaccurate WCO QBs which make pick 6 WCO QBs.

That is how the WCO loses. That and an inability of the OL to open quick holes with zone blocking on runs. That is our other problem. Our O-line is too slow.

I don't see the WCO gelling this year at all.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He's not talking about the west coast offense as
> being fast he's talking about the decision to go
> no huddle all game and run as many plays as
> possible.
>
> Its a philosophical thing more than an x & o
> thing.


First off that was not his question. His question in the subject of this thread, which makes very little sense...
Secondly, the chances that we run a no huddle offense all game is slim to none... SO what in the world is this thread about... Very confusing...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche