ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Lucky for Tom Brady he plays for New England and
> not Miami.

And multitudes of phin fans across the planet would also be chanting "Fire Ireland Now!" for that SB loss too.

Correct.

BigNastyFish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark, you’re obviously down on Moore and I
> respect your opinion, but I think you’re missing
> a key point about the kid IMO. He still has some
> legit upside, he’s young, has shown the tendency
> to make things happen, and I think he can function
> in a timing based offense and execute 3 step / 5
> step drops and get rid of the ball. He can also
> move and throw fairly accurately on the run. So
> why can’t play in the scheme we’re
> implementing? I think he can. And there’s always
> the possibility the kid will do significantly
> better with some OL protection, more weapons, and
> improved schemes.
>
> Beyond that, there are a number of minds around
> the league who think the kid is a player. But that
> also makes your point about his tradability
> viable; he does have SOME VALUE if we decide to
> move him. But I don’t see that as a smart move
> because is if Garrard goes down then Thill is in
> the game. And as much as I like the Thill’s
> upside, and the more I check him out the more I
> like, he’s way too inexperienced and not ready
> to be thrown into the fire. My opinion…
>
> However, if Thill grows leaps and bounds in camp,
> and the staff believes he’s capable of being in
> the game on the next play, then maybe we consider
> a trade for Moore as long as we get something
> worth the gamble. And that would be at least a #3
> IMO. Too much below that isn’t sufficient
> compensation for risking Thill’s exposure at
> this point in his career. But your point about the
> $$$ may prove to be the deciding factor. I just
> think ideally it would be better to keep Moore and
> play things out from there.

People weren't exactly beating down Moore's door as a free agent. He had good stats one season in Carolina, and they responded by drafting Jimmy Claussen, so they clearly didn't believe in him. Brandon Marshall clearly didn't think much of him. Jason Taylor said that Moore was the team MVP, but that an upgrade was needed. Davone Bess said "we need someone," referring to the QB position. Jeff Ireland said the level of play at QB was not good enough. Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner, and Jim Miller were all on one show on Sirius one day, and they all talked about how Miami needed an upgrade over Moore. So, I do not buy that there are people around the league who think he is a player. But, he has value to someone as a backup running the New England style offense.

ChyrenB Wrote:

> Thanks for the intervention of common sense.
> Everyone is ready to toss Matt Moore out because
> we didn't win the Superbowl.
>
> Not saying that he will prevail but geez, everyone
> wants to try out the NEW quarterback and I'm not
> talking about just Tannehill either. They want to
> throw Moore out for David Garrard, who to my
> memory, didn't do any better if better at all than
> Matt Moore.
>

I'm ready to toss Moore because he is not a good QB, not because we didn't win the Super Bowl. He is a slow decision maker. His accuracy is inconsistent. He has no sense of the pass rush. How many times did Colombo get beat, which was on the front side of Moore's vision, and Moore still didn't sense the rush coming? Why did Bess and Hartline see their targets drop? Moore doesn't progress through his reads. He stared down Brandon Marshall, and then checked it down. This is one of the things that Ireland specifically mentioned he needed improving on, actually making all the reads.

The last 4 years he has played, Garrard has completed 63% of his passes, for 7.4 yards per attempt, for 71 TD, and 41 INT, with an average passer rating of 89.5. And he was doing that with very poor WR talent around him.

I don't know how rusty Garrard is after his back injury. But, if he is healthy, he is a clear upgrade over Moore.

Exactly right Mark.

It has nothing to do with Matt Moore winning or not, it has to do with the fact that we run a WCO and Matt Moore is not a WCO QB.

Hey may stay, I'm not saying that he positively is gone because the last time I checked Gerrard isn't a top 20 QB anymore.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

It is still too early to tell on Moore. I don't think You can award the wins solely to the defense or anyone.

The fat bastards were out of shape and finally got into shape.

Matt Moore was signed at the end of July around the same time as teams started practising. So he had about 3 weeks of training AS THE NUMBER 2 QB before the preseason started.

I think he did a pretty decent job all things considering.Not exactly Pro Bowl material last year but he was the 12th ranked QB. pretty close to the range Chad P was in when he was here.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

i think moore is a top 25 starter in this league, with the potential to be about 12-15. not good enough which is why we drafted RT, but he'd be a great backup and certainly would have trade value. I can't see us cutting him before the season and hopefully we keep him around at least in the backup role past this year, or trade him for a pick

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I'm ready to toss Moore because he is not a good
> QB, not because we didn't win the Super Bowl.

That comment was not meant for you. Agree with you or not, I know you base your opinion on stats.


He
> is a slow decision maker.

I'm sorry. I just did not see this.



His accuracy is
> inconsistent.

Agreed.


>He has no sense of the pass rush.

I have my right hand flat out alternating the thumb and the pinkie being higher. Meaning I can see how he can be accused of it at times but I did not see it consistently.

In fact, my memory is that he, knowing that we had gigantic holes in our pass blocking, took off or made the throw a helluva lot quicker than Chad Henne, who relied on either shaking the rushers off his back or got sacked. I'd like to see the sack comparison between Henne and Moore.


> How many times did Colombo get beat, which was on
> the front side of Moore's vision, and Moore still
> didn't sense the rush coming?

Didn't sense it or compensated for it by throwing? Again, sacks stats would show and you are the stat man.

>Why did Bess and
> Hartline see their targets drop? Moore doesn't
> progress through his reads. He stared down Brandon
> Marshall, and then checked it down.

Could that be intimidation from Marshall who always baby-whines about not getting enough passes thrown his way?


This is one of
> the things that Ireland specifically mentioned he
> needed improving on, actually making all the
> reads.
>
> The last 4 years he has played, Garrard has
> completed 63% of his passes, for 7.4 yards per
> attempt, for 71 TD, and 41 INT, with an average
> passer rating of 89.5.

Not exactly great numbers.


>And he was doing that with
> very poor WR talent around him.

The same could be said of Matt Moore. Remember Brandon Marshall DROPPED SIX TOUCHDOWN PASSES IN THE ENDZONE.


> I don't know how rusty Garrard is after his back
> injury. But, if he is healthy, he is a clear
> upgrade over Moore.

Disagree. The thing I liked about Garrard was that he was a big healthy strapping fellow that was like Henne on steroids but I was never impressed with his passing.

I'm not saying his passing was bad but what attracted me to him was his big bruising physical presence.

If we are all looking for passers in this "quarterback driven" league, then I'd say you look to Moore before you look to Garrard.

Again, my money says that the signing of Garrard was based on two words.......................Pat Devlin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2012 10:24AM by ChyrenB.

Berk, I bet Panther fans would disagree with you on him bro a top 25 QB. Well, after his first year, they thought he was legit, the 2nd year he looked worse than AJ Feeley.

So glad we didn't put our trust in him moving forward.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Moore has 2 good and 2 bad seasons to his resume. I put his first year with CAR and last year with us in the "good" category (notice I didn't say great, or even "very good". Based on that, I think he deserves another year before we can definitely say whether he is a "good" or "bad" QB. I think he is a good backup for sure.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

I can agree with the backup idea.

But in no way can he be trusted with a franchise to be their starter.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dolfanmark Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > I'm ready to toss Moore because he is not a
> good
> > QB, not because we didn't win the Super Bowl.
>
> That comment was not meant for you. Agree with
> you or not, I know you base your opinion on
> stats.

Not on QB play. There is a certain rhythm that good QBs have. Moore doesn't have it.

>
>
> He
> > is a slow decision maker.
>
> I'm sorry. I just did not see this.
>

What you don't see from him is drop, plant, throw. He drops, plants, surveys, throws. The better QBs know where they are going before they finish dropping and the ball comes out right on time. And this is a huge foundation in the WCO. And Moore doesn't do it.

>
>
> His accuracy is
> > inconsistent.
>
> Agreed.
>
>
> >He has no sense of the pass rush.
>
> I have my right hand flat out alternating the
> thumb and the pinkie being higher. Meaning I can
> see how he can be accused of it at times but I did
> not see it consistently.
>
> In fact, my memory is that he, knowing that we had
> gigantic holes in our pass blocking, took off or
> made the throw a helluva lot quicker than Chad
> Henne, who relied on either shaking the rushers
> off his back or got sacked. I'd like to see the
> sack comparison between Henne and Moore.

If you'll remember, Chad Henne had 15 rushing attempts in 3.25 games. For his career before last year, he had averaged 1.5 rushes per game, and that includes kneel downs. The reason the number jumped last year was because he would see Colombo get beat off the snap, tuck the ball and run. And he ran effectively, averaging 7.5 yards per attempt. Moore averaged 2 rushing attempts per game, and averaged just 2.0 yards per rush. He senses the pass rush too late to do anything about it. Profootballfocus.com put 7 of our team sacks as Moore's responsibility for holding on to the ball too long. By comparison, Chad Henne had a total of 2 sacks as his responsibility in 2010 and 2011 combined.


>
>
> > How many times did Colombo get beat, which was
> on
> > the front side of Moore's vision, and Moore
> still
> > didn't sense the rush coming?
>
> Didn't sense it or compensated for it by throwing?
> Again, sacks stats would show and you are the
> stat man.
>
> >Why did Bess and
> > Hartline see their targets drop? Moore doesn't
> > progress through his reads. He stared down
> Brandon
> > Marshall, and then checked it down.
>
> Could that be intimidation from Marshall who
> always baby-whines about not getting enough passes
> thrown his way?

Of course, Marshall himself is part of it. But, you could also see Moore finally show progress in this area late in the season. First, he started finding Fasano. And later in the year, you could see him go through his reads a little bit more, and get Bess or Hartline involved.

>
>
> This is one of
> > the things that Ireland specifically mentioned
> he
> > needed improving on, actually making all the
> > reads.
> >
> > The last 4 years he has played, Garrard has
> > completed 63% of his passes, for 7.4 yards per
> > attempt, for 71 TD, and 41 INT, with an average
> > passer rating of 89.5.
>
> Not exactly great numbers.

We would kill for those numbers from a QB on a year to year basis. According to pff.com, Garrard was the 3rd highest graded QB in 2008, 12th in 2009, and 12th in 2010. He is vastly underrated because of the team he played on. He has been a very solid NFL QB, and quite consistent year to year.

>
>
> >And he was doing that with
> > very poor WR talent around him.
>
> The same could be said of Matt Moore. Remember
> Brandon Marshall DROPPED SIX TOUCHDOWN PASSES IN
> THE ENDZONE.
>

Unfortunately, 3 of those dropped TD passes in the endzone were thrown by Henne. And while Marshall is a diva, and selfish, and drops tons of passes, there is no denying his talent. And Bess and Hartline are both better than any receiver Jacksonville has had.


>
> > I don't know how rusty Garrard is after his
> back
> > injury. But, if he is healthy, he is a clear
> > upgrade over Moore.
>
> Disagree. The thing I liked about Garrard was
> that he was a big healthy strapping fellow that
> was like Henne on steroids but I was never
> impressed with his passing.
>
> I'm not saying his passing was bad but what
> attracted me to him was his big bruising physical
> presence.
>
> If we are all looking for passers in this
> "quarterback driven" league, then I'd say you look
> to Moore before you look to Garrard.

Even though Moore is not better in any passing statistic than Garrard?

>
> Again, my money says that the signing of Garrard
> was based on two words.......................Pat
> Devlin.

I would say it's more based on the West Coast Offense. They wanted a veteran who could execute it, and Garrard at least has experience in it.

I don't understand why Moore gets credit for being 6-3 down the stretch, like his 0-4 start doesn't matter. And I hate when anyone rates QBs on won-lost records. People have even realized that wins and losses are not even the best way to evaluate major league pitchers. And a major league pitcher has much more of an individual influence on the outcome of a game than a QB does. QBs don't play defense or special teams. They don't block. They don't catch passes. They play the most important position, but they get too much credit when a team wins, and too much blame when they lose.

The reality is that Matt Moore had 4 excellent games in 2011, and in the other 9 was mediocre to bad. In the two wins against Buffalo, one against KC, and the loss to New England (and their horrid pass defense), Moore threw 11 TDs and just 1 INT. He had a collective passer rating around 125. In the other 9 games he played, he threw 5 TD and 8 INT, with a collective passer rating around 72.

Dolfanmark,

Anyway you slice and dice it, Moore had a great season...
I believe that he had the 12th best passer rating of all qbs in the nfl...
And he did not have the luxury of padding his stats at the end of blowout games, as he was in many close games!

I noticed intangibles, such as 3rd down completions, and making clutch plays!
I honestly saw none of that with Henne in 3 seasons!

Whether garrard played a little in 2010, or not, he still has not played competitive football in almost 2 years!

I believe you are too harsh on Moore...he is still young(younger than weeden ) and deserves a chance to compete for the starting qb position this season.

I agree. moore is the best QB we've had since pennington, probably the second best since marino or at least feidler during the one 1/2 season he was good. I don't get trashing him---yes he sucked with CAR that one season be he definitely did not suck here last year

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

He still hasn't started for a full season yet in his career. All of the judgement on him thus far is based on him starting only some games, and he started for more games here last year in a single season than any other at Carolina. I think people forget he was put on IR in 2010.

Gus Frerotte was better the one year he played for us.

Moore IMHO showed enough last year that I would like to see him get his shot at the starting job, he earned it. We did the right thing by bringing in a veteran and drafting a number one pick in the case he fails. I really wish all of these folks who keep saying he is not a WC qb would just stf up.

There are only two ways Moore or Garrard get released/traded. One is if Devlin has developed and steps up. The other is if Tannehill wins the starting job AND Devlin has developed and steps up. We will keep three QB's...the worst one will be gone.

It's gonna be interesting.

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are only two ways Moore or Garrard get
> released/traded. One is if Devlin has developed
> and steps up. The other is if Tannehill wins the
> starting job AND Devlin has developed and steps
> up. We will keep three QB's...the worst one will
> be gone.
>
> It's gonna be interesting.

That sounds like ONE way, not 2. If Devlin beats out Garrard or Moore, then we drop one of them. Tannehill will make the team regardless.

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are only two ways Moore or Garrard get
> released/traded. One is if Devlin has developed
> and steps up. The other is if Tannehill wins the
> starting job AND Devlin has developed and steps
> up. We will keep three QB's...the worst one will
> be gone.
>
> It's gonna be interesting.


I'm not sure that devlin factors into the decision at all.

I think it comes down to money.

I believe we are set up to go with Moore and garrard in whatever order as 1&2 with Tannehill as the 3rd , inactive qb.

If Tannehill plays himself into the #1 or #2 role then I can't see us paying a lot of money to a veteran 3rd string qb.

I know garrards contrat was team friendly and incentive based. Just don't remember if those incentives were performance or roster based.

If they are performances based you might be able to stash him on the roster as the 3rd qb and not pay a ton.

If they are roster based we would likely have to get rid of one of the two vets. The only one with trade value is Moore and that might not be all that much.

I dont think devlin makes this team unless Tannehill plays his way out of the 3 spot forcing us to move one of the vets.

I can't see him getting enough reps in practice to make the team. There are only so many to go around and you have two vets fighting for a starting job with a 1st round rookie. Even if the rookie doesn't get the starting nod he's going to suck up every extra practice snap to further his development.

It is certainly going to be interesting to see what happens.

I say if we can get a second rounder for matt more go for it. Do not think about it for a second.

It wouldnt be that bad if we pick 3rd or 4th overall next year even if we cannot get barkley it doesnt matter.

Its not like we are going to the playoffs this year.

Hopefully we pick real high in every round next year and get a few more weapons for tannehill.

Call me a nut....But i can't wait for the draft next year....Id settle for sacrificing this year.2012.

Nut

Double Nut

I walked right into that one. LOL.

But do you guys agree that we are not making the playoffs this year right?

Yes or No.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But do you guys agree that we are not making the
> playoffs this year right?
>
> Yes or No.


To early to say.

Need to see how our offense looks and how the players adapt to the west coast.

We have a VERY soft schedule.

If Martin has a major impact at RT then any thing is possible. We have speed and some weapons on offense. We are better off at qb than any time since Marino retired.

There just no way to predict what our defense does in a new system yet.

The schedule indicates it won't take a giant leap to go from 6 to 10 wins.

We probably are an 8-8 team but it's way to early to say there's no way we win 10 with this schedule.

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^

The jets will win at least 10 games and the pats more.

I dont see us having a better record than either of them without a great QB and a stud OL.

Matt Moore was a one year wonder.

I hope am wrong and he wins many games this year but i just don't see us winning more than 7 games in 2012..

truth incoming PM.