Yeah, Realist but everyone was blaming Henne for folding in crunch time {no this is not a pro-Henne thread}. Now Henne goes down and we see Brandon dropping balls in crunch time.

No matter how many yardage a guy builds up, if he folds in crunch time, how good is he? Could it be that it was Marshall failing in crunch time and not Henne because we seem to be doing the same thing with Henne not even dressed?

I acknowledge that Marshall dropped some crucial passes. BUT he has made some other clutch plays and he takes a TON of coverage away from the other targets.

With all the drops...with all the double coverage he is about to have one of the top 10 seasons by any WR in Dolphins History.

Chambers had 82 catches for 1118yds in 2005. To find a similar performance you have to go back to O.J.McDuffie's 90 catches for 1050 yds.

If he caught those TD's he would definitely be a STAR player. He would be elite.

But even without being 'elite' he is still our top performer. And with a better QB...he would likely be better.

completely agree with realist. marshall is not elite but he is our best player and he is very good. that said, he is overpaid based on his production the last two seasons but we can't really do anything about that right now.

Yeah, but Realist, what were the stats of the other WR's those years?

Marino distributed the ball around because we didnt have any diva WR's. The stats are scewed a bit because of Marshall's demand for the ball.


Listen, I never said he wasnt a good WR. The guy has all the talent in the world.

My beef with Marshall is, he cant be one of the greats, because he drops balls that great WR's dont drop. THey just dont do that.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Hartline- zero attention is paid to him or respect given to him, he gets covered most of the time by the opposing teams third best corner, whenever he plays... He never gets double teamed, let alone triple teamed. When he does catch the ball, he normally isnt open, the QB makes a money throw and he makes the catch... Do you guys actually watch the tape on games, seriously?. When we play the Jets, they dont put Revis on him. They have either put Revis on Marshall or Bess, never a concern on that level for Hartline... Why hasnt Hartline taken over any games or broken 100 yards, when he has the weakest defender on him? Moore reads the field, if Hartline was destroying his defender Moore would feed him all day....lol


You guys are lost, in your hatred for Marshall...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2011 03:15AM by Crowder52.

I guess Im lost then.

Denver didnt want him. Most of the Miami fans dont want him.

Guess we are all lost.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Marshall won a lot of superbowls with denver too. I guess he didnt make a difference over there either.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Marino distributed the ball around because we
> didnt have any diva WR's. The stats are scewed a
> bit because of Marshall's demand for the ball.


And we won a lot of games with marino and made playoffs BTW. that we didnt had a running game or defense is another story.

What aqua says is exactly right....Its more proof that with a superstar QB and average receivers you can win in this league.

BTW Hartline is far from average.

PS. I guess its the opposite with an average QB and a great receiver.......That is if you wanna call marshall a great receiver with all them drops......Its called alligator hands.

Marshall has made my life a living hell on sundays from game one to today....It seems like they put wax on his hands on purpose.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hartline- zero attention is paid to him or respect
> given to him, he gets covered most of the time by
> the opposing teams third best corner, whenever he
> plays... He never gets double teamed, let alone
> triple teamed. When he does catch the ball, he
> normally isnt open, the QB makes a money throw and
> he makes the catch... Do you guys actually watch
> the tape on games, seriously?. When we play the
> Jets, they dont put Revis on him. They have either
> put Revis on Marshall or Bess, never a concern on
> that level for Hartline... Why hasnt Hartline
> taken over any games or broken 100 yards, when he
> has the weakest defender on him? Moore reads the
> field, if Hartline was destroying his defender
> Moore would feed him all day....lol
>
>
> You guys are lost, in your hatred for Marshall...


exactly right with all of it.

2011

Brandon Marshall 70rec 1,021yards 14.6avg 65long 5 TD's

Brian Hartline 29rec 461yards 15.9avg 41long 1 TD


I like Hartline he is a great 3rd reciever/2nd and runs the best routes on the team, but considering the difference the 2 face in defensive coverages and skill of defenders, there really is no comparison... Marshall drops the ball more then I would like, but the greatest RB's also fumble. When you have 70 -100 receptions a year, you are gonna have some drops. Unless, you are giving me a Calvin Johnson, ROddy White or Larry Fitzgerald, I am taking Marshall on my team...

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chambers had 1 season in which he had more
> receptions than Marshal has right now (14 games.)
>
> McDuffie had 1 season with 90
> receptions.....playing with MARINO!!!! no RB and
> no complementary WR's.
>
> After that you have to go back to the 80's to find
> someone who is exceeding Marshall's production.
>
> hey, I hate his drops too. But to say he doesn't
> make plays? or doesn't make a difference? Isn't
> accurate.
>
> BUT the thing that gets me is....he has done this
> while playing with QB's that NOBODY WANTS TO
> KEEP!!
>
> Is Henne the guy you want back? Moore? If we
> took Tom Brady and put him in a Phins uniform and
> put either of our QB's in the Pats uniform would
> the story change? DAMM SKIPPY it would!
>
>
> If Marshall can produce like this, with an OL that
> took 8 games to gel, no complimentary speed
> oposite him and a QB we don't want? How does he
> do with a quality QB, OL, and a solid 'speedy' WR
> opposite him?


RE: Exactly Realist.

Crowder,

What you are failing to get through your head is this...

Its not just that Marshall drops passes. All WR's do, its the situation is which he drops them. He has dropped about 10 TD passes this year, half of which may have won us games.

Great WR's drop passes, just not in big situations, that the difference between Marshall and the elite.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Okay, let me try one last time. When we took Marshall from Denver, we knew he was a head case. We figured that a change of scenery might help him along. He was worth the risk.

Well, we actually didn't do that bad on that score because with the exception of driving that woman to the point she stabbed him, getting a few intentional penalties and demanding the ball too often, we haven't had the major conduct problems with him.

However, what's up with the dropping of balls? You guys should be "realist"-ic and admit that this guy is a weight upon us. Who knows maybe Denver knew about the ball dropping in clutch time crap as well? Did we really research that part? Maybe Denver is chuckling now because all we worried about was the conduct issues.

If we can get something decent for Marshall, I'd bite.

you guys are overdoing it on the dropped passes. it is a very fixable issue. guys drop passes, its part of the game. almost all WR, even very good ones, go through times where they drop passes. marshall has good hands as evidenced by some of the spectacular catches he makes. it is probably a concentration issue that he needs to work through. since he has had this issue all season, it has probably become a mental thing as well. he has matured a lot this season and i fully expect him to address this issue by next season.

dropped passes are not a reason to dump a WR that is as productive as Marshall. by the way, i have not season Marshall demanding targets this year. in fact, i have seen him become more of a leader. i have also seen him address his personal issues with the public which is probably much more difficult than anyone here realizes.

Perfectly said!

He wanted out. He was involved in a tragic incident in which a teammate was killed by someone trying to shoot him.

I can see why Denver had too many distractions.

he aint perfect, but he is our best WR.....the best since Chambers....and top 10 in team history.

You are using logic. stop it.

just kidding.

I agree completely.

Last year the top pass droppers were.....

Wes Welker 13 ( from the great Tom Brady)
Reggie Wayne 12 (From the amazing Peyton Manning)
Marshall 11 ( From the ...? replacable?...Chad Henne)
Terrel Owens 11 ( From the sought after Carson Palmer)
Austin Miles 10 (From the frustrating Tony Romo)


You guys need to look more objectively at the whole situation. Elite WR,s plying with elite QB's are dropping passes too.

Who is in the best situation out of that list? Who is in the worst? I think it is safe to say that Marshall is in the least desirable situation.

Im glad you picked out 1 year, Realist.

Either way, it doesnt matter. Marshall drops passes when games are on the line.

He cost us the first 4 games of this season.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Go ahead and trade Hartline to the Patriots, they need someone to replace Welker with in the future. Hartline would be perfect to use against us for another 10 years of Dolphin misery.

chrisnnavarre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Go ahead and trade Hartline to the Patriots, they
> need someone to replace Welker with in the future.
> Hartline would be perfect to use against us for
> another 10 years of Dolphin misery.



Go ahead and trade Marshall to the Patriots, they
need someone to replace what Randy Moss did, in the future.
Marshall would be perfect to use against us for
another 10 years of Dolphin misery.

Touche!

Not really, the Patriots are smart and not dumb and don't want anyone who drops clutch passes. With their poor defense, their offense is all they got and they would absolutely FREAK if Marshall dropped TD passes in the endzone.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not really, the Patriots are smart and not dumb
> and don't want anyone who drops clutch passes.
> With their poor defense, their offense is all they
> got and they would absolutely FREAK if Marshall
> dropped TD passes in the endzone.



Selective memory my friend, you post your comments as if Patriot WR's have never dropped passes in the end zone, including randy moss... Hartline also has dropped TD passes in the endzone... But i guess none of that matters? Your hatred of Marshall makes you beleve he is the devil and a a problem compared to anyone else... lol.... Are you in the westboro babtist church?

me personally i WANT a guy that WANTS the ball. I dont care if he crys when he is not getting it cause that means he has supreme confidence in his ability. What would jordan do or say if he was not getting the ball? Infact if he does not cry for the ball i get worried cause that means his name is ted ginn or the biggest waste of talent chris chambers. If chambers had the attitude of T.O. he would have been elite and i believe boarderline HOF, instead he just drifted around and if the qb forgot about him he did not say anything. you cant be great playing like that. Marshall wants the ball and i want that in my play makers...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2011 09:45AM by Miami Reppa.

Wanting the ball is one thing, Reppa, but dropping it is another.

Those stats are hard to get without a paid subscription. Why don't you tell us the top 4 or 5 guys who lead the league in drops in 2009, 2008...see how many 'non elite' guys are on that list and how many 'elite' there are.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those stats are hard to get without a paid
> subscription. Why don't you tell us the top 4 or 5
> guys who lead the league in drops in 2009,
> 2008...see how many 'non elite' guys are on that
> list and how many 'elite' there are.


2011 top 5 in drops:
Greg Little
Brandon Marshall
Roddy White
Victor Cruz
Wes Welker

2010
Brandon Marshall
Wes Welker
Stevie Johnson
Pierre Garcon
Mike Williams

2009
Marques Colston
Mario Manningham
Ted Ginn
Terrell Owens
Johnson/Bowe/Jones/S.Moss tied for 5th, Marshall was 9th

2008
Braylon Edwards
Brandon Marshall
Dwayne Bowe
Roddy White
Calvin Johnson/L. Coles

Obviously, it stands to reason that highly targeted players are going to have a good shot at being near the top of the list. But, in Marshall's case this year, it's been how devastating his drops have been. He's dropped what, 7 passes in the endzone? Plus another long one against San Diego that would have been a TD? And that doesn't include two in the endzone against the Jets which counted as passes defensed, but he had both his hands on the ball. Single-handedly, he completely changed our red zone fortunes. If he makes those catches, our TD percentage in the red zone is above average. When you pay a guy that kind of money, and he is 6'5, 230 lbs, you want him to be a huge positive factor in the red zone, not a negative one.

For me personally, I don't believe in having one guy get almost 30% of the targets on your pass plays (in NE, Welker is targeted 23% of the time, and Gronkowski is targeted 17%). I think it's too predictable. I also think it affects the timing of the offense. There is a tendency to stare down that one guy, forcing him the ball, rather than just going to where your best matchup is. Marshall has been a much bigger factor on plays downfield this year than he ever has in his career. He had a career 12.0 yards per catch average coming into the season, and he is going to set a new personal high. That's a plus for him. But, he has been a problem in the red zone, from the drops to not even making attempts to catch some jump balls. In my opinion, I would rather spread the ball around more. 59% of the targets of Marshall have been complete. That's 62nd in the league. In 2010, it was 65%, which was 30th in the league. In 2009, it was 68%, which was 26th in the league. In 2008, it was 58%, 60th in the league. Throwing him the ball has never resulted in an "elite" high percentage of catches. And until this year, his yards per catch has been very pedestrian. So, why force the ball there? I would rather see the targets spread around, get more weapons involved. We threw 10 passes to Clyde Gates all season. Next year, how do we get him more involved? How do we get more catches for Charles Clay? How do we use Fasano more? How do we get Bess back to being a bigger factor? How do we include Thomas more? Since almost 30% of our targets go to one guy, the obvious answer is to reduce his targets. And the thing you have to worry about with Marshall is will he be a happy camper if his targets get reduced?

Ultimately, what this will boil down to is whether or not the new coach wants to put up with Marshall and the baggage he brings.

Watch out spewing obviousness around here, Mark. You might get lambasted for it.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"