Almost every thread for the last x amount of years has been about wanting a new coach and a new qb and that will solve all our problems.

So why didn't we win a Superbowl or many Superbowls all the years we had Shula and Marino???? (one of history's greatest combinations).

Was one of them a fraud?

Or is the theory (great coach & qb=superbowl) that everyone wants to believe wrong?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2011 11:27AM by sleekdogg.

Great defense and great offense win's SB. Come on a complete team is what it take's and a little bit of luck, perhaps some Andrew Luck sprinkled in will be what the doctor ordered, oh yeah and some RT, RG rookies who tear it up too.

Deigol090 Wrote:
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> Great defense and great offense win's SB. Come on
> a complete team is what it take's and a little bit
> of luck, perhaps some Andrew Luck sprinkled in
> will be what the doctor ordered, oh yeah and some
> RT, RG rookies who tear it up too.


But Why wouldn't a great coach have known this and addressed it. I mean we had the killer d in the 70's when shula was the coach so he knew the importance of rallying,building, and teaching a strong defense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2011 11:42AM by sleekdogg.

Good question Miami should have been to like 5 sb's in the 90's but why didnt SHULA adress the lack of dominate defense and running game.

Don Shula screwed over Dan Marino.

Deigol090 Wrote:
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> Good question Miami should have been to like 5
> sb's in the 90's but why didnt SHULA adress the
> lack of dominate defense and running game.
>
> Don Shula screwed over Dan Marino.

Its just weird. I agree with what you were saying about balance in your other post that would have to be the ideal way to handle business. But then there are the weird circumstances where you have the baltimore ravens who won the big one with pretty much all defense.I'm starting to think that clock management could be a big factor in winning and getting a superbowl.

Deigol090 Wrote:
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> Good question Miami should have been to like 5
> sb's in the 90's but why didnt SHULA adress the
> lack of dominate defense and running game.
>
> Don Shula screwed over Dan Marino.

he tried, just drafted a bunch of average players---jay brophy, jackie shipp, tj turner, eric kumerow, jon bosa, lorenzo hampton, sammie smith, rick graf, etc etc

It takes talent, coaching, drafting, quality discplined practice, AND a healthy dose of LUCK. Its not just one or two of those things. Shula had all five in 72-73 and then there was always one or more of those things missing from the equasion even when they got to or should have been in the superbowl.

With free agency three additional dymamics are added, making it much harder...good players and quality depth leaving teams frequently, players not living up to thier billing in non-contract years, and players dogging it if they don't make what THEY think they are worth.

Then you have rule changes that make it harder to excel and more teams making it harder to divide the few really good coaching candidates.

And lastly, there are VERY, VERY, impatient fans...and owners. Stability, and the ability to bring players along at a reasonable pace is forever lost.

Defense is the most important, and wins championships. If you have the defense that allows the least points in the leauge, yo uhave a great shot of going far, and then you just need an adequate QB and offense(see NY giants and Steelers recent superbowl victories)The defense is what shined on those teams. Eli Manning wasnt going to out gunsling Tom Brady to win a Superbowl, the defense was going to have to step up and limit Brady's success. The better your defense is the worst your offense can be and vice versa, as well as you have to get on a a role or run at the right time. You have to have a certain amount of luck in the injury category. It is all about a comfortable balance in your team that gives you an edge, especially late in the season. The NFL has shown that the comfortable balance for SUperbowl success can come in all forms and fashion. A strong elite QB and coach or dominant defense can give you the competitive edge in achieving that balance, but is far from a guarantee in either direction of philosophy IMO..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2011 12:31PM by Crowder52.

ps- an normally and unpredictable factor in the form of person the coaches use to motivate the team, sometimes a veteran player sometimes, a wounded soldier(giants), soldiers sacrifice and wounded city(new orleans), etc. Something special and inspirational the unites, motivates and inspires the team at the right time

Having a great QB/coach combo doesn't guarantee a Super Bowl title, but having a bad QB/coach combo almost guarentees not even coming close, I'm sure someone will remind me of a couple, but I'd like my chances better with the first scenario.

dolphaholic Wrote:
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> Having a great QB/coach combo doesn't guarantee a
> Super Bowl title, but having a bad QB/coach combo
> almost guarentees not even coming close, I'm sure
> someone will remind me of a couple, but I'd like
> my chances better with the first scenario.


Trent Dilfer and Brian Billick come to mind, as a bad Qb?coach combination, furthering the fact, a defensive player in MLB Ray Lewis was the actual Superbowl MVP should tell the tale for most IMO.
Dilfer career completion percentage 55% and QB rating 70.2
Brian Billck career winning percentage .556



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2011 01:14PM by Crowder52.

The 2007 Giants went 0-2 to open the season. 10-6 into a wildcard spot, and then beat number 1 seed NFC cowboys who were 13-3. The number 2 Packers who were also 13-3 and finshed off with a Superbowl win against an 18-0 Patriots. COughlin was thought to be on the hot seat, and Eli was hardly considered an elite franchise QB. That defensive line of the giants dominated the run of games that it mattered...

dolphaholic Wrote:
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>
> By saying someone, I meant Crowder


Cheers Dolph,

The consensus is that the Pats currently have the best QB and coach in the league.

As of this moment, their defense is dead last in the league in yards given up.

I'm pretty sure Belichick knows the importance of a good defense. So I guess putting one together is easier said than done.

berkeley223 Wrote:
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>
>
> he tried, just drafted a bunch of average
> players---jay brophy, jackie shipp, tj turner,
> eric kumerow, jon bosa, lorenzo hampton, sammie
> smith, rick graf, etc etc


you are being very kind to about half that list of players by promoting them to "average"!

Shula and Marino had bad timing. Two years before Marino we actually had a very good defense (Bill Arnsparger was our DC) and a promising running game (Andra Franklin). We even made the Superbowl with WoodStrock...which made it blatantly obvious that the ONE MAIN THING WE WERE MISSING WAS A QB. So, drafting Marino was like winning the lottery...or so we thought.

That's when the bad luck started:

1. Arnsparger left in 1983 to coach at LSU
2. Franklin suffers a career-ending injury in 1984

We never recovered fully from both of those occurrences while Shula was here. Shula never found another RB like Franklin, and he, inexplicably, held on to Olivadotti year-after-year.

What Shula DID do is build an offensive scheme and set of players around Marino, creating one of the best, if not the best, offenses in the NFL. So, when Shula retired and was replaced by JJ, all JJ needed to do was fix what was broken:

1. Fix the defense (which he did)
2. Find a good RB (which he didn't)

Unfortunately, he also dismantled the offense, which ruined the rest of Marino's career.

monte by the time J took over marino's career was a basically over anyway. he was a shell of himself during the height of the shula years.

Some bad luck was a factor. The 1982 team had a great defense. But, by the end of the 1984 season, Larry Gordon had died, Don McNeal had blown out both achilles, and Bob Baumhower and AJ Duhe had suffered injuries that never allowed them to be dominant players again. The defense blew up before it was supposed to, and after that, it was always a scramble to try to fix it. We traded two number ones for Hugh Green, who was among the elite OLB in the game, but he blew out his knee and was never the same. Jackie Shipp was a number one pick who was a bust. John Bosa always got hurt. The defense finally got fixed in 1992, but by then, Duper and Clayton got old and were very ineffective in the playoffs.

berkeley223 Wrote:
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> monte by the time J took over marino's career was
> a basically over anyway. he was a shell of himself
> during the height of the shula years.

I don't agree. Elway won his 2 Superbowls very late in his career. He was nowhere near the QB when he won those than he was when he went to his first 3, but a running game and defense made all the difference. Put an inexperienced average QB on those teams and they don't go nearly as far.

no, by the time jj took over marino was completely immobile, a sack/fumble waiting to happen. he still had some amazing moments, but nowhere need what was needed to win a sb even with an improved D and running game.

The rules were simply much different back then. It was basically an entirely different game.

When Marino played, defensive backs could practically mug WRs. It was a much tougher era in which to throw the ball. So, you needed a strong defense and a running game, which is something Shula never decided to pursue.

With today's rules, QB's win Superbowls.

berkeley223 Wrote:
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> no, by the time jj took over marino was completely
> immobile,

That's saying a lot. Marino was never very mobile to begin with.

montequi Wrote:
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> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > no, by the time jj took over marino was
> completely
> > immobile,
>
> That's saying a lot. Marino was never very mobile
> to begin with.


In some ways he was. He had great footwork and great mobility to evade the pass rush, just wasn't a complete scrambler or running QB.

JC Wrote:
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> montequi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > berkeley223 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > no, by the time jj took over marino was
> > completely
> > > immobile,
> >
> > That's saying a lot. Marino was never very
> mobile
> > to begin with.
>
>
> In some ways he was. He had great footwork and
> great mobility to evade the pass rush, just wasn't
> a complete scrambler or running QB.

Look. Put even a hobbled Marino behind the Pats O-Line and he'd throw for 800 yards.

montequi Wrote:
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> JC Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > montequi Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > berkeley223 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > no, by the time jj took over marino was
> > > completely
> > > > immobile,
> > >
> > > That's saying a lot. Marino was never very
> > mobile
> > > to begin with.
> >
> >
> > In some ways he was. He had great footwork
> and
> > great mobility to evade the pass rush, just
> wasn't
> > a complete scrambler or running QB.
>
> Look. Put even a hobbled Marino behind the Pats
> O-Line and he'd throw for 800 yards.


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Its because they realize what their #1 asset is, Tom Brady. When you have a franchise QB, you ensure he stays safe.

Guess that tells you what our FO thinks about our QB's.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

montequi Wrote:
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> JC Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > montequi Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > berkeley223 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > no, by the time jj took over marino was
> > > completely
> > > > immobile,
> > >
> > > That's saying a lot. Marino was never very
> > mobile
> > > to begin with.
> >
> >
> > In some ways he was. He had great footwork
> and
> > great mobility to evade the pass rush, just
> wasn't
> > a complete scrambler or running QB.
>
> Look. Put even a hobbled Marino behind the Pats
> O-Line and he'd throw for 800 yards.


Yeah, all in one game, under today's rules.

Shula tried to fix the running game, but a pure running attack didn't mesh with Marino's style. Dan was the worst play-action QB maybe ever. He never really sold it, because he didn't WANT to run. Don thought he had a good runner with Sammie Smith, but that blew up in his face. So, I won't fault Shula for our lack of running game with Marino...but keeping Olivadotti was unexcuseable.