"Back" is the optimum word...

All the way back to the formation of the universe, Henne is a football black hole.

eesti Wrote:
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> Most of those guys were on the bench for years
> before taking over. Henne had really one year. I
> was trying to think of a situation similar to
> Henne.
>
> Brees is a good example but seems to be the
> eception not the rule...so to speak. He also
> really aired it out in college and had great
> success throwing the ball with something like 12k
> yards and 90 tds. He was a much more heralded
> player and Heisman candidate.
>

Henne threw for 10,000 yards and 87 TD in college, so was very comparable to Brees there. Brees played in a more wide open, passer friendly system, while Henne had Mike Hart carrying the traditional Michigan running game.

Look around the league, and see where QBs were 3 years into their careers. Many of them had not proven themselves as quality starters at that point.

Listen Henne has alot to prove, but last year he got hurt and had to come back and play while not completely healthy. Yes he did get benched, but our line was beat up and our play calling was terrible. So now it is a new year with many new faces on offense, and still people think Henne is a bum who can't play in this league. Hell I was one of them last year that was saying we need to acquire a QB through a trade or the draft. Now after the Long offseason I see that maybe I and others were too hard on Henne did he play poorly at times yes. Did he down right suck in some games yes, but could we have won many of those game that he played poorly in a resounding YES. So the book is not finished on Henne. He could bounce back a be a solid starter. Maybe never a pro bowlwer, but a serviceable QB like Carson Palmer or Kerry Collins. Someone who understands the offense, and knows his role in it. I would take that Henne over a great Henne one week, and An awful Henne the next week. So my long answer is yes I expect Henne to bounce back starting with a home win on MNF to start the season.

I don't have much faith in passer ratings. Almost useless IMO.

I wouldn't compare any of those guys to Hennes situation. They all showed more consistency and clutch play making....not to say they were consistent at first.

Young was a runner so he's not a good comparison. Rodgers is incredible and I feel safe in saying Henne will NEVER be in his league.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Henne was a 4 yr starter. Brees played a couple 4th quarters as a backup his freshman year....so basically 2k more yards in only 3 yrs.

True he did play in a wide open passing attack but my point was he was a play maker in college and still is. Henne was inconsistent and would look good and then stink it up....he still does that.

I love numbers but they don't always tell the whole story. I don't know how to explain it but when I watched the successful qbs when they were young.....they had a special factor that made you go WOW! I have never felt that with Henne.

He will look great at times but hardly ever when we really need him to.

I believe he has been thrown under the bus and is not as bad as many would have u believe. I also think he suffered for a lot of other players and coaches faults.

I truly hope he proves everyone wrong. There is just something missing. Confidence maybe along with a few other things. I would like to see him go nuts and just play without hand cuffs...see how he responds.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Crowder52 Wrote:
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> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > you cannot judge Henne's performance on third
> down
> > when the Wildcat has been inserted in either or
> > both of the first two downs.
>
> Chyren,
> Even with the WIldcat distractions, Henne's
> strogest suit is on third downs. He had one of the
> higher passer ratings and completion percentage on
> 3rd downs of all the QB's in the entire NFL.


And just think how much higher it would be it you subtract those 3rd down plays that were run inside the opposition's 20 yard line AFTER the wildcat had been inserted on 1st and/or 2nd down and failed to get a touchdown.

I will bet if you talk to all the Henne-detractors on this board, the chief reason they blame him is for his failure to score or convert a first down when we are in the red zone. I remember many of them bitching last year about us having to settle for field goals instead of making touchdowns.

These guys don't realize that when you waste your first two downs running the ball inside the 20 yard line, the opposition "has you by the balls" on 3rd down. They pretty much know you HAVE TO pass.

This situation is the optimum for the defense and the worse for the QB.

Yet many posters on this board just looked at the "bottom line" and said, "Hey, Henne doesn't get us touchdowns. His passes don't connect in the red zone."

I'll bet if you check Tom Brady's plays in the red zone, a good amount of those touchdown passes came on 1st or 2nd down instead on 3rd down when he was out of options.

ChyrenB Wrote:
>
> And just think how much higher it would be it you
> subtract those 3rd down plays that were run inside
> the opposition's 20 yard line AFTER the wildcat
> had been inserted on 1st and/or 2nd down and
> failed to get a touchdown.
>

I think everyone can remember how often last year the Fins would go to the wildcat once they got inside the opponents' 30, and wound up forcing a 3rd and long situation.

On 3rd and 7 or less to go, Henne completed 45 of 74 passes with 6 TD and 1 INT. On 3rd and 8 or more, Henne completed 36 of 61 passes, with 1 TD and 6 INT.

Another example of how Henning did Henne no favors. Part of coaching is to put your guys in positions to succeed. We were not a good 3rd and long team, and have not been in some time. Heck, in the year Pennington started, we were the worst in the league, converting just one 3rd and long the entire season. Our line has not been good enough against a heavy pass rush, and our receivers were not threats to beat anyone downfield. So, 3rd and longs were a real problem for us. And yet, the coaches continued with this strategy that repeatedly failed.

Based upon these statistics, I think our new offensive strategy should be the following simple 3-step process:

1) do whatever it takes to get a first down inside the opponents 30
2) ensure that we get no fewer than 3 combined yards on 1st & 2nd downs
3) have Henne pass on 3rd and 7 or less to go

Obviously, this is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but there's truth in it, too. If we're able to get into manageable 3rd down situations around the red zone, Henne can be effective.

Augmenting this "strategy", I personally would like to see more aggressiveness on 3rd and long deep in opponents' territory. If 3rd & long is so doggone difficult anyway, fire a pass into the end zone and see what happens more often.

Obviously, they didn't intend for those wildcat plays to fail and force third and longs. But, as the season wore on, and the wildcat averaged less than 2 yards per play, shouldnt someone have noticed how this strategy repeatedly failed?

Good points and stats guys, Henne was the best we have probably had in third downs in a long time last year...
Yes i understand running twice in the redzone and forcing us into a 3rd down pass play on a short field, when the defense's know it, is a horrible position to put your QB in. ANd something it seemed Henning felt was his duty to do to Henne

dolfanmark Wrote:
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> Obviously, they didn't intend for those wildcat
> plays to fail and force third and longs. But, as
> the season wore on, and the wildcat averaged less
> than 2 yards per play, shouldnt someone have
> noticed how this strategy repeatedly failed?

You think someone WOULD HAVE noticed,but Dan Henning's failing memory plagued us all year.

what is henne's conversion rate on 3d down. sure he completed a lot of passes on 3d down but I seem to recall a lot of 2 yard dump offs to the RB on 3d and 10. you could complete 100% of those but they are still rotten throws

When the other team knows what to expect your team to do on 3rd down it is very easy to defense those plays. We had no creative offensive imagination last year except on rare occasions. I am not blaming it all on Henning or Henne. However if we are in a bad play or formation shouldn't Henne have the right to switch to another play? I mean after all he is the QB, and is supposed to be the leader of this offense. Let Henne grow the hell up. It is time to take the training wheels off of the bike. Last year alot of times when we had the lead late Henne was playing like he wasn't trying to make a critcal mistake then made made one. Hell let's play to win, and not sit on leads. That is a coservative LOSER'S mentality. I watched Henne play and win alot of games at Michigan. He can be a good QB in this league. Let the man grow up and play. If your goal is to play mistake free on offense most times that will lead to more mistakes. Our goal should be to score points on offense on every drive however that has never been the philosophy of this offense. It's time to replace Henne's blow up doll with a real woman if you know what I freaking mean.

I think somebody had gained a "rep" for bringing the Wildcat in and it was somewhat successful the year BEFORE LAST YEAR when it was new to the NFL and took everybody by surprise.

Why didn't they learn? Well, when someone gets the credit for something and they have a lot to say about what plays are run, they keep on insisting on running the play that they "invented" (so to speak).

They keep hoping the glory from the year before last will re-assert itself.

However, they don't realize that the reason that last year the wildcat worked for MOST EVERY TEAM THAT TRIED IT BUT US was that every team EXPECTED IT OF US. Therefore, when the Pittsburgh steelers run it, everyone is surprised but the week before the game against us, everybody practiced defending it.

Why do we insist on still running it? Somebody has a huge ego investment in running it until it succeeds, no matter how low the percentage of success may be.

berkeley223 Wrote:
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> what is henne's conversion rate on 3d down. sure
> he completed a lot of passes on 3d down but I seem
> to recall a lot of 2 yard dump offs to the RB on
> 3d and 10. you could complete 100% of those but
> they are still rotten throws


I would think it would be an odd thing indeed if it were 3rd down and 1 yard to go or 3rd down and two yards to go, that we (or any other team) would be passing as a rule, particularly in the red zone. Are you sure you are remembering accurately, berk????????????

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what is henne's conversion rate on 3d down. sure
> he completed a lot of passes on 3d down but I seem
> to recall a lot of 2 yard dump offs to the RB on
> 3d and 10. you could complete 100% of those but
> they are still rotten throws


Overall, the Fins converted 40% of third downs, which was 12th best in the NFL. Henne had 168 passing first downs, which was 13th best in the NFL.

On 3rd down and 3-7 yards to go (3rd and medium), Henne had a passer rating of 119.7. In that situation, Henne completed 71% of his passes at an average of 8.2 yards per attempt, with 4 TD, and 0 INT. In 39 completions in that situation, 35 resulted in a first down.

So, on 3rd and a manageable distance, you'd have been hard pressed to find a better performance than what Henne had.

thanks mark. those stats do not jibe with my recollection, but maybe it's skewed b/c I recall many times at the end of the season during end of game drives with us trailing on 3d and long he threw 2 yard dump passes to brown. I think against the pats, browns, bills, etc, one or more of those end of the year games

ghotirule Wrote:
>
> Another case of recalling a bad game plan and
> blaming Henne.
>

A great example of this is the Bills game. This is another one where you hear people blame Henne when the first play of a desperation drive was a short out to Ricky. We needed 50 yards to get into FG range, with 42 seconds left and no timeouts. And we lined up with Henne under center, with Ricky and Polite in the backfield in an offset I, with Fasano at TE. So, 50 yards to go, 42 seconds, no timeouts, and we lined up in our base offense, as if it was 1st and 10 on the first play of the game. So, we have two guys running deep, with everyone covering them, so you dump it off to Ricky and hope he can break a tackle and pick up 15-20 yards underneath. But, the ultimate problem on this play is the call, the personnel, and the formation. It makes no sense. This game is also another example of pulling a hot Henne for the wildcat. With 4 minutes left, Henne was 12 for his last 14, and gets pulled for the wildcat on a 2nd and 10, setting up a 3rd and 9, and we settle for a 48 FG attempt.

There's also the Lions game, although that was more on the line than Henning. Again, final desperation drive. And we try to go with 4 WR and shotgun, but the line cannot block anyone, and Henne is getting hit on every play. As a result, they are forced to keep Fasano and Ronnie into block, just to allow Henne time to complete some short throws and get the ball moving. It was truly awful performance from the line.

And this whole thing on 3rd and long is not necessarily a Henne issue. Go back to 2008, under Pennington. We did not convert a 3rd and long (8 or more yards to go) until the last game of the regular season. If you'll remember, that season, we would have 2 or 3 great drives per game. They'd be 15, 16 play drives where everything went right. If there was any setback, like a penalty, or play for a loss, the drive would stall. And for most of the game, we'd get a first down or two, and then punt. People have fond memories of the Pennington year, but the truth is we were 21st in the league in scoring that year, so the offense wasn't good. But, for whatever reason, whether its personnel or playcalling, we haven't been good on 3rd and long for longer than the Henne era. In my opinion, it's been a lack of speed and playmakers, so I have hope that this year we'll get better.

is it EVER Henne's fault? so far all of his issues are apparently solely due to the OL and OC. admittedly these didn't help him, but Henne deserves plenty of blame too

I know what I've seen. I've seen every throw Henne made last year and this notion that he is a good QB if only he had a better line, or if only he had a better OC, or if only we didn't run the WC, is bending over backwards to make excuses for the guy. I've seen lots of times when he had plenty of time to throw the ball and just made a horrible play. Had an open receiver and just missed him. Had time clicking down at the end of the game and moved with no urgency, not getting the team ready. An NFL QB has to overcome the crap around him and step up and make plays and I saw that too infrequently from Henne. A great QB makes the team around him better; you guys seem to be taking the opposite view, that the team has to lift up Henne and any failure by others excuses his performance.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > thanks mark. those stats do not jibe with my
> > recollection, but maybe it's skewed b/c I
> recall
> > many times at the end of the season during end
> of
> > game drives with us trailing on 3d and long he
> > threw 2 yard dump passes to brown. I think
> against
> > the pats, browns, bills, etc, one or more of
> those
> > end of the year games
>
>
> Wait, or you saying a) you remember him throwing 2
> yard dumps on 3rd and long and Ronny or Ricky ran
> for the first on those plays thereby resulting in
> the high percentage pass completion on 3rd down
> and he shouldn't get credit or b) you remember, to
> the contrary, a lot of his 3rd down passes were
> short dumps in which Ronnie could not make a first
> down so the stats don't square with your memory?

B. 2 yard passes to Brown on 3d and 10. In the 4th Q with the team down and less than 5 min to go. Mark, you seem to have total recall here. This did happen. I think consecutive plays, maybe vs CLE or BUF

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know what I've seen. I've seen every throw
> Henne
> > made last year and this notion that he is a
> good
> > QB if only he had a better line, or if only he
> had
> > a better OC, or if only we didn't run the WC,
> is
> > bending over backwards to make excuses for the
> > guy. I've seen lots of times when he had plenty
> of
> > time to throw the ball and just made a horrible
> > play. Had an open receiver and just missed him.
>
> > Had time clicking down at the end of the game
> and
> > moved with no urgency, not getting the team
> ready.
> > An NFL QB has to overcome the crap around him
> and
> > step up and make plays and I saw that too
> > infrequently from Henne. A great QB makes the
> team
> > around him better; you guys seem to be taking
> the
> > opposite view, that the team has to lift up
> Henne
> > and any failure by others excuses his
> performance.
>
>
> RESPONSE: Are we talking about Henne needs to be a
> "good" QB or a "great" QB?
>
> Of the QBs playing now and starting for most teams
> including Manning and Brady, how many will go down
> as "Great" which means with Bart Starr and Johnny
> Unitas and Dan Marino, etc.

A Good QB. Good BSs makes the players around them better. i will totally settle for "good" not great out of Henne.