dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Marshall admitted that from the start of the
> season, he would come off the field and go to
> Pennington, not Henne, and ask Pennington why
> Henne didn't throw it to him on a particular play.
> And Pennington would ask, "were you open?", and
> Marshall would say, "well, no." This is not how
> you build a relationship with your QB. You don't
> go behind his back. You go to him, and you talk
> about the play. You establish a working
> relationship. But, that would be too hard for
> Marshall. He is the classic diva receiver.
> Unfortunately, he does not have the skill set to
> make him worth the trouble.

When did Marshall admit this? link?

Trade away our best player on offense? Glad you're not a GM. Then again you were a huge fan of Chad Henne and also John Beck. That puts things into perspective.

montequi Wrote:
> I guess it's how you look at it. To me, a #1 is
> the first guy the QB looks for on a typical play.
> Perhaps Marino was supposed to look at Duper
> first, but ultimately Clayton became his main
> target.
>
> But, based on your explanation, you're right.
> Marshall does his best coming over the middle and
> on the run. Too many plays were run that required
> him to stop and wait for the ball. Once he does
> that he's not going to burn the defender and get a
> lot of YAC. He's also not fast enough to get open
> on a fly pattern. In fact, he played more like a
> TE in our offense last year (blocking, catching
> short stuff, carrying defenders). That's one
> reason I suggested using him in that role as the
> pass-catching TE we were missing. If we get a
> speedster, where does that leave Hartline. BH is
> built like a possession receiver. He's not going
> to beat out Bess for the slot role. So, either BH
> ends up as the #4 or gets traded. What about an
> alignment with Marshall at TE, Hartline, Bess, and
> a 3rd speed guy at WR?


See, and this is why our group of WR is worse as a whole than the sum of the individual parts. Individually, we're good. As a unit, we're not a good mix.

Bess is a great slot WR, but that's it. He loses all effectiveness when he is asked to play the X or Z. He's simply too slow and too small to be effective running the route tree against starting corners. He's good on the 5-7 yard sideline to sideline type routes where he gets a lot of matchups with LBs, safeties, nickels, or zone. So, he's stuck in that one role, but he's terrific at it.

Hartline is best suited as a Z. He only runs a 4.55, which makes him fast in our group of WR, but it's below average for the league. He's not a deep threat, even though he can occasionally sneak by a defender. I am really high on him as a Z. He was on pace for a 55-60 catch season, at over 14 yards per catch. That's a lot of catches for a guy playing on the same team with Bess and Marshall.

Marshall is not well suited for the X role. When you think of the classic #1 guy, it's usually an X, like Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, TO in his prime, Calvin Johnson, etc. But, Marshall does not have the speed to be that kind of player. And this has nothing to do with Henne, as his stats have always reflected this. In fact, the throws to him from Henne averaged more yards downfield in the air than what he had in Denver. Marshall does not get a lot of separation, and he is not good at going up for balls in one on one situations. He's at his best working in the 5-10 yard range, where he can use his body to get position on the defender. And this is the problem. Our two top WR, Bess and Marshall, are both at their best in the same part of the field. The result is that other teams cheat up their safeties to clog the underneath routes, which also helps them defend the run against us. When you watch other passing games, look at their spacing. You see guys spread out all over the field. When you watch our passing game, all of our receivers, including Fasano and the backs out of the backfield, are packed into the area within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage. It leaves no margin for error. If a guy falls down, or slips, or a pass gets batted, there are a lot of defenders in a small area to make the interception.

San Diego didn't trade Vincent Jackson. But, Jackson's skill set fit our needs much better than Marshall did. He's the guy we should have gone for.

I would trade Marshall. I'm biased, because I have no use for a guy with his history of domestic violence. But, that's on a personal level. I also have no use for a guy who is going to commit an intentional penalty out of frustration. That happened in a game we were winning, and after a play where he caught pass that put us in the redzone. So, his level of frustration was all about his personal stats, and not about the team. I don't want that kind of guy on my football team. Don Shula never had to deal with guys with massive contracts like Marshall, but he would have benched a guy for what Marshall did. And I don't want $10M a year tied up in a guy that doesn't fit the position we are asking him to play.

If I had my way, I would revamp the passing game with
a) trading Marshall away
b) signing Vincent Jackson, Malcolm Floyd, Braylon Edwards, or even James Jones as a veteran receiver who is a downfield threat. This doesn't have to be a guy who can catch 100 passes. I want it to be a guy who can catch 50-60 passes, at 15+ yards per catch.
c) signing Zach Miller or Kellen Winslow as a receiving threat at TE. This can be a young QB's best friend. I think this the key move of all of them.
d) drafting a pure speed guy somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd round, like a Titus Young or Jernel Jerrigan.

I honestly believe that Marshall would not be missed if you could pull this off. And having a lot of weapons makes an offense a lot more dangerous than having just a couple. Its no coincidence that Henne struggled so mightily in the last 5 weeks, which was when Hartline went down. Once Hartline went down, other teams doubled both Marshall and Bess, particularly on 3rd downs, and Henne had nowhere to go with the ball. Hartline at least added a 3rd guy to worry about. This is why you need 5 or 6 guys to worry about, so that you can absorb injuries.

Bess would still get his 70 catches out of the slot. Hartline and the new veteran X receiver would be 50-60 catch guys. And new pass catching TE could be a 50-60 catch guy. And the speedy rookie WR simply needs to be a guy who catches 20-30 passes, but can stretch the field.

Q - Will Marshall get traded?
A - I certainly hope so.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wayne Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > can't make any trades until new cba
>
>
> I guess you missed this part of his post at the
> top and asterisk
>
> "****I know the CBA crap. Keep that out of this
> discussion.******"
>
> A&O,
> I am not in favor of trading Marshall quite yet.
> It is never a good practice to buy high and sell
> low... I also do not think it is going to happen,
> they brought in a new offensive cordinator, I
> imagine he will get his shot with Marhsall in his
> offense. Is Marhsall an NFL dream killer, I think
> that is yet to be determined. I do like that he
> owns it, in interviews and knows he has to keep
> improving his attitude. I think this year was a
> bad year for him and while he wasnt perfect, he
> got through it and is working on himself and being
> held accountable for it. The man has 40 million
> reasons to grow up, and I think he is maturing.

&&&& Completely missed that part of the post ha ha. So A&O premise is for Marshall to have a monster year, drive his value up then trade him? basically have a guy fulfill one of your biggest needs then get rid of him, have to replace him with a guy that you hope will give you that same production. PASS! &&&

Quote:

"Trade away our best player on offense? Glad you're not a GM. Then again you were a huge fan of Chad Henne and also John Beck. That puts things into perspective."


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Uh-oh...he is back on the attack. Hokie cant have normal discussions, he only comes here to blast people.

Your real name must be Seung-Hui Cho.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Sounds like to me that Bess is the problem, and we can trade him for a 3rd or 4th round pick.

So why not trade Bess for a 3rd round pick, and pick up Titus Young, then Move Marshall as the slot wr.

Jesus all this complicated BS.

Your saying you would rather have BESS over Marshall as our Slot wr?

Bye bye Bess, thank's for the help, but you got to go.

In-fact trading him for a 3rd or 4th round pick would be the besth trade this team could do, because he is young, and in need, and worth it!

Mia1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds like to me that Bess is the problem, and we
> can trade him for a 3rd or 4th round pick.


Just like we traded welker for a 4th or 5th then drafted satele with that pick.

Satele is not even here anymore and welker is playing in the pro bowl.


DUMB.

Not Bess. Trade Hartline!

Quote:

"Not Bess. Trade Hartline!"


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
How about keep our WR's and upgrade at QB, O-line, and RB?

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quote:
>
> "Not Bess. Trade Hartline!"
>
>
> &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> How about keep our WR's and upgrade at QB, O-line,
> and RB?

Sure! But we should have upgraded our coaches as well. I feel like we've downgraded so far.

Im all for trading nobody.......We trade hartline, he goes to another team and becomes the next ed mccafrey

IMO we can win with our receivers. We just need a qb and offensive line.

We wont win anything without a QB and OL in place. Even if we have 2 or 3 pro bowl receivers.

Quote:

" I feel like we've downgraded so far."


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
How do you feel that? Dan Henning was the worst OC in the league, there is nobody below him.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im all for trading nobody.......We trade hartline,
> he goes to another team and becomes the next ed
> mccafrey
>
> IMO we can win with our receivers. We just need a
> qb and offensive line.
>
> We wont win anything without a QB and OL in place.
> Even if we have 2 or 3 pro bowl receivers.


Great post. I agree 100000 percent. Without someone to throw them the "damn ball", it doesn't matter who you have catching them.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quote:
>
> " I feel like we've downgraded so far."
>
>
> &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> How do you feel that? Dan Henning was the worst OC
> in the league, there is nobody below him.


Except maybe the OC for the offense that actually scored fewer points than we did!!

Name me 3 good players on Clevelands offense.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Good job, you named the 3.

BTW, it was real nice seeing Mack and Thomas make all those plays for that offense.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2011 05:48PM by Aqua&Orange.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quote:
>
> "Not Bess. Trade Hartline!"
>
>
> &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> How about keep our WR's and upgrade at QB, O-line,
> and RB?


Ding. Ding. Ding you win the prize!

My reply at him was a little sarcastic, Wayne.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My reply at him was a little sarcastic, Wayne.

#### Be that as it may it's exactly what's needed, and I believe that is exactly what will happen. #####

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good job, you named the 3.
>
> BTW, it was real nice seeing Mack and Thomas make
> all those plays for that offense.


is this the sarcastic post.

Meaning mack and thomas actually didnt make any plays?

LOL...haha...well that was 1 of them, Sam.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

lol

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL...haha...well that was 1 of them, Sam.


Just wanted to clear that up for mia1 or dolfan1...

Not 3 bright. i mean 2.

Im beginning to think that Aqua has a alternate ego named SamSam, or they are just two Uh Umm well dude's totaly falling in love with each other.