The Good, the Bad, and the Really Ugly
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This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel.
Only one possible good out of the debacle in Miami is that if Tua is their target, and if if comes out, he's a Dolphin.
The bad for me was the embarrassing performance of the defense. I thought Flores was supposed to be a defensive guru. If I didn't know better, I'd say Matt Burke returned to Miami and brought Tom Olivadotti with him.
The hideous has to be the really offensive line. To say they stink would be an insult to things that stink. Worst performance by an offensive line I've ever seen and I've seen some pretty crappy lines in Miami.
On a side note, the guy who's going to be making all the future picks selected Minka Fitzpatrick. I'm not calling him a bust, but yesterday he played like his name was Stinka.
colonel Wrote:
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> Well, Fins you nailed it with you post.
>
> This next game with the Patriots may eclipse the
> JJ debacle of 62 points. Our defense can't stop
> their offense.
Colonel, my only hope is that historically, Miami has played NE tough in Miami and division games tend to be closer than you might otherwise believe. That said, my gut tells me it's going to be a very ugly game for Miami. My hat will be off to any fans brave enough to show up for this one.
My two cents for what it is worth......You only really see anyone's true self when we go through adversity. I really believe that is what Coach Flores is trying to do.
To change the culture you need to change the mindset. Any football player who goes out and plays his butt off on a bad football team and does not complain is a players I want on my team. Of course they need skill, but sometimes the skill is overshadowed by the attitude (ie AB and OBJ)
I, personally, would rather have a team of smart dedicated players than a team of great athletic players. I see it every week with the high school football team I work for as their athletic trainer. Every play they complain about something, nothing is ever their fault. They can beat teams that are not as good as us, but have little to no chance against teams as good or better. Thirty years in athletics has taught me that you can be good with athletic players.... but in order to be great you have to be smart and athletic. I think Coach Flores understands this and is building a team with that in mind.
astro34 Wrote:
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> My two cents for what it is worth......You only
> really see anyone's true self when we go through
> adversity. I really believe that is what Coach
> Flores is trying to do.
>
> To change the culture you need to change the
> mindset. Any football player who goes out and
> plays his butt off on a bad football team and does
> not complain is a players I want on my team. Of
> course they need skill, but sometimes the skill is
> overshadowed by the attitude (ie AB and OBJ)
>
> I, personally, would rather have a team of smart
> dedicated players than a team of great athletic
> players. I see it every week with the high school
> football team I work for as their athletic
> trainer. Every play they complain about
> something, nothing is ever their fault. They can
> beat teams that are not as good as us, but have
> little to no chance against teams as good or
> better. Thirty years in athletics has taught me
> that you can be good with athletic players.... but
> in order to be great you have to be smart and
> athletic. I think Coach Flores understands this
> and is building a team with that in mind.
I hope you're right about Flores, but I think it's a bit too early to tell. My concern with Flores was the same concern I had with Gase. Very limited experience coordinating and no experience head coaching. That's why I was so happy that Caldwell would be on the staff and so bummed when I learned his health wouldn't permit him to be involved. The papers are excoriating Flores and the rest of the coaching staff for making no adjustments after it became obvious that Jackson was having a career day throwing the ball. I don't pretend to be astute enough to know whether that's true or not. I will say that when a second year QB scorches your defense for 5 touchdowns, it does seem to suggest that the defensive game plan wasn't very sound. The alternative is that the coaching staff laid down for Baltimore and I refuse to believe that. Ultimately, Flores has been dealt a very difficult hand. On the one hand, the team has been stripped of talent because the idea is to get the first pick in the draft. On the other hand, he's being criticized for the poor performance of the team. I guess the fans and the media want him to lose but not be blown out. Crazy time to be a Dolphins fan. I always come back to the idea that the most important man in an organization is the one charged with drafting players. If he's successful, the likelihood is that the team will be successful. If he's not, after a number of years of poor drafts, you're tanking a season to amass high draft picks. Sound familiar?
Great observation. Tanking, disgruntled players and such sells more papers but this is basically what is happenings. The coaches, front office and most of the players understand what is going on here. Its hard to bear.
In a sense, with all the new personnel, the Ravens game was preseason game #5 (unfortunately). I would actually expect us to pretty much get housed until the bye week, then perhaps we play better.
The local Miami media pretty much sucks. Hyde rehashes how the Dolphins are tanking every article. Armando is the source of the player mutiny. Omar is also a hot take/click bait artist with little substance to his articles.
Who's involved in the mutiny? 90% of the team are on rookie contracts. I'm sure there are guys pissed off. we got our asses kicked. The media sharks are circling. We lost because we traded Tunsil and Stills???? If I remember correctly, neither played defense. Kiko wasn't going to stop the aerial onslaught. Huge liability in coverage.
Yeah SC we went into game one w/ 2 starting OL, 1 starting DE and his backup who did not play a single preseason game for us. No one writes that. That trio of pricks who call themselves sports writers hate facts.
Davis and Davenport did look good on some plays. Tackles might turn out ok. The guard situation looks ugly right now. I too think if there is any good news down the pike its coming in game 9 or 10.
The only players I would respect asking for a trade are Jones and Drake but they were on the table and no one picked them up. Would respect Davis and Kilgore but they are first class and toughening this thing out it appears.
mizzou15 Wrote:
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> Yeah SC we went into game one w/ 2 starting OL, 1
> starting DE and his backup who did not play a
> single preseason game for us. No one writes that.
> That trio of pricks who call themselves sports
> writers hate facts.
>
> Davis and Davenport did look good on some plays.
> Tackles might turn out ok. The guard situation
> looks ugly right now. I too think if there is any
> good news down the pike its coming in game 9 or
> 10.
>
> The only players I would respect asking for a
> trade are Jones and Drake but they were on the
> table and no one picked them up. Would respect
> Davis and Kilgore but they are first class and
> toughening this thing out it appears.
I'll give a pass to Davis because he's gone from guard to right tackle to left tackle in a period of one training camp. Davenport needs to be replaced, though. I've done some looking at his past play in Houston and he plain out and out stinks. They'd be better off playing J'Marcus Webb at right tackle and Calhoun at right guard. Neither are attractive replacements but I think would be a bit of an upgrade. Actually, one bright spot was Deiter who outplayed all the offensive lineman on Sunday. Might be damning him with feint praise, but it's encouraging to see him not seem overwhelmed in his first outing where literally everything was going wrong.
I think the coaching staff knew it was going to be really ugly early leading to starting Fitz. At least with his experience, he can kind of do things. You could throw a HOF QB behind our line and they're gonna get crushed
Dieter played 4 preseason games.Davenport played zero doubt if he knew 20 playes.With that he he showed some things. Houston played him at LT and he just isn'tready for LT. Kid played at Bucknell so he is smart. I liked him coming out of college but thought he needed time to develop HOU did not give him any. He was not ready for LT. He could develop at RT. Webb ehh. He is in the same boat doesn't know the playbook, no preseason snaps with the team.
The D is the unit that surprised/disappointed me the most. Watching the preseason games, the D looked pretty good; hustling and hard hitting tackling. Against the Ravens? Didn't see any of that.
The O I expected to not look good. OLine is either new players or players playing out of position, except Kilgore. Gonna take time for them to jell, and maybe even more time for the coaches to figure things out.
captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The D is the unit that surprised/disappointed me
> the most. Watching the preseason games, the D
> looked pretty good; hustling and hard hitting
> tackling. Against the Ravens? Didn't see any of
> that.
>
> The O I expected to not look good. OLine is either
> new players or players playing out of position,
> except Kilgore. Gonna take time for them to jell,
> and maybe even more time for the coaches to figure
> things out.
>
> No excuse for Grant dropping that punt.
>
> Other than that, the fins looked pretty good.
I agree with you 100%. We have a fair number of playmakers on defense. Our New HC is a defensive minded coach......I didnt expect 2001 Ravens D but damn.......59 points!!?
astro34 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My two cents for what it is worth......You only
> really see anyone's true self when we go through
> adversity. I really believe that is what Coach
> Flores is trying to do.
>
> To change the culture you need to change the
> mindset. Any football player who goes out and
> plays his butt off on a bad football team and does
> not complain is a players I want on my team. Of
> course they need skill, but sometimes the skill is
> overshadowed by the attitude (ie AB and OBJ)
>
> I, personally, would rather have a team of smart
> dedicated players than a team of great athletic
> players. I see it every week with the high school
> football team I work for as their athletic
> trainer. Every play they complain about
> something, nothing is ever their fault. They can
> beat teams that are not as good as us, but have
> little to no chance against teams as good or
> better. Thirty years in athletics has taught me
> that you can be good with athletic players.... but
> in order to be great you have to be smart and
> athletic. I think Coach Flores understands this
> and is building a team with that in mind.
I couldn't agree more. No adjustments were going to change the outcome sunday. Bobby McCain bit on every play action and when we did load the box they still ran all over us.
Flores saw what he needed after the game. If Minkah and his mommy keep complaining about his position he won't be here to see this thing through. Take pride in the fact that they think you're good enough to play multiple positions to help the D.
Isn't it odd that we drafted a guy in the first round who, among other talents, was supposed to be a safety, but are now playing an undersized slot corner at safety? I'm not saying they're necessarily wrong, but it does seem a little strange.
I think honestly they have overloaded Minkah. He is talented and versatile but I think mentally, he is overloaded playing everywhere. As a result, he overthinks instead of just playing. The coaches should dial it back a little on him and let put in positions where he can succeed and better perform.
SCPhinsFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think honestly they have overloaded Minkah. He
> is talented and versatile but I think mentally, he
> is overloaded playing everywhere. As a result, he
> overthinks instead of just playing. The coaches
> should dial it back a little on him and let put in
> positions where he can succeed and better perform.
Hes definitely frustrated .He said last season...give me a position and I'll play it. Hes not Zach Thomas.....a player who went side line to sideline maki g plays.He wants it more defined, our coaching staff needs to see this , play to thier strengths so they succeed.
Yeah and today they agreed to trade him. This move I am truly unhappy with. This guy is a building block and part of perhaps the only team unit that can compete in the nfl.
Its time to stop the trades. Minka, Davis, Baker, Drake, Grant, Wilson and Rosen along with the 2019 rookies should all be kept and developed for the future.
I hope this is not that Gase, Philbin crap where the coaches walk around with a hard on for players at the slightest hint of discord and ship them off or throw them in their dog houses. Its time for keeping what you got and molding them into a team.
Giving Minkah permission to seek a trade tells me that only a couple of possibilities exist as to why and none is encouraging. If Fitzpatrick isn't the player they thought he would be, Grier has missed on yet another first round pick (the same Grier that will be charged with picking another 3 1st rounders in the next two years. Second possibility is that Minkah isn't the problem and the coaching staff doesn't know how to use him or handle him. That would mean that we'd be looking at yet another coaching change in the near future. I keep coming back to Grier. Wasn't he in charge of selecting Minkah and hiring Flores? At least one of those two decisions was a bad one.
Minkah is a player and the front office was right bringing him in. Some one is going to get a damn good safety. Only way I would trade him is for an OT. Would rather have a veteran than a draft pick if we trade him.
mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Minkah is a player and the front office was right
> bringing him in. Some one is going to get a damn
> good safety. Only way I would trade him is for an
> OT. Would rather have a veteran than a draft pick
> if we trade him.
That goes against what appears to be their "plan." A veteran tackle would make sense if you were trying to win some games this year. You certainly wouldn't have traded away Tunsil in that event. Pretty clearly, they're trying to amass as many picks as they can. The problems I see is that you traded away Tunsil and if you trade Minkah for another first, don't you need to use those picks to replace Tunsil and Minkah? Maybe if they'd traded some veteran players for these picks I could understand the logic. Trading young players for picks that you're going to have to replace with other young players doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Moreover, this plan only works if you hit on a bunch of the picks that they're amassing. I hope they do because if they don't, we're going to stink even worse than we have and for a long time. One other thing, if you were going to tank for a QB (which like it or not they clearly are) why trade a 2nd and a 4th for Rosen? There's no way to gauge how good or bad he is with an offensive line like this one. Honestly, it's starting to look like a clown show with moves being made on the fly.
You still require building blocks. You cannot totally 'gut' your team. Say we trade for SEA backup LT Jones (and a pick) or Eagles backup Dillard (straight) up. Say we acquire Dillard we get him on his rookie contract, LT will not be a priority for 2020 win win. Dilliard was looking good in the preseason. Jones is not athletic but smart w/ good techniques he would be more of a risk but more of a natural LT than Davis.
I would still draft a qb in first round in 2020 (w/ Rosen on the roster) and then draft Lawrence in 2021 if we have the opportunity. People just don't appear to understand this is a rebuild. I don't want to 'try to win some games'. I want to compete for the AFC championship at a minimum. That did not happen or come close to happening w/ Wake, Alonzo, Stills, Tanne, Davis, Tunsil et. al on the roster. Some fans want to tread water for 20 years. Maybe this front office and coach wants to compete in 3 or 4.