Treasure, these incidents bring out the Sharptons. Al Sharpton does not create the incident.

We've both had our say. You think mine is light on the side of Officer safety, which we both agree should be the paramount concern.

However, what I am saying is that when someone is charging him (or her) at CLOSE range, yes protect yourself.

But when some guy is 15 feet away with nothing in his hand AND DOES NOT CHARGE YOU (story of some witnesses in Ferguson).

Or when some guy completely off his rocker in St. Louis stands there for quite a while 15 feet away just holding a knife and begging you to shoot him..............................

right or wrong though both may be, if it was your son, or the son of anyone on this board, you would like the officers to employ SOME 'less lethal' form than a volley of shots.

As a policeman, it's your duty to protect yourself and the community but as a prosecutor, it is my duty to do the same. Even criminals have their right to a day in court and not be summarily executed by even a policeman who says to himself, "if I even smell a whiff of danger or if I can construct a scenario in my mind where an olympic athlete might disarm me, I am entitled to shoot multiple times to kill."

I saw the video with the St. Louis cop shooting as well. This is the one involving the mentally ill guy who begged to be shot. I don't agree. There should have been "less lethal" force used.

Facts or not, Simple rule #1 right or wrong, if you physically assault a police officer while he is alone, there is a very good chance you are going to die...

Regardless of race, if you expect to physically assault a police officer while he is alone, and expect to not get shot I am not sure what world you live in....

Sure we can question the degree at which he defended himself, but either way, you just don't do shit like that if you want to live very long... I am sure the cop would rather have not been put in that position but he was and not by his choice... Hard to blame him for how he handled it...

If that cop was my Dad, I would hope he defended his life at all cost... If the boy was my brother I would be saying what the f*ck are you doing messing with a cop like that...If a cop addresses you, it is yes sir no sir, I am sorry, promise it will not happen again officer... Anything else is just plain stupid and foolish... It doesn't make you tough it makes you stupid...
That being said, cops can be assholes some time, and have ego tripping, and be in the wrong... But it doesn't matter, it is a lose lose situation to stand up or fight it... Take it, bite your tongue, move on and live... Or be an asshole, challenge him and roll the dice with your life.... I am not sure all of the details in this particular situation, but that much I do know..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Whoever assaults a police officer should get shot anyways.

What kind of a person assaults a police officer?

Someone who gets caught doing something illegal.

Someone who is not on their right mind.

Either way i believe the officer has the right to defend himself.

If he has to shot him so be it.

Don't see nothing wrong with it.

SamSam, we all agree that if you are in hand to hand combat with an officer, you deserve to get shot. The fact ALONE that you might grab his gun justifies that.

However the facts here are yet to be determined and the dispute IS WHETHER it was hand to hand combat or a shooting from 18 feet away. We know the shooting in St. Louis was, we have conflicting versions about the shooting in Ferguson.

Crowder, much the same thing. You started your post by saying "if you assault an officer........"

You also said, "while he is alone..." We know that is true of the officer in Ferguson but not in St. Louis where there were two cops and one could have tried with a taser.

Crowder, what if your brother was not standing close enough to pose a threat and what if you couldn't yell at him because he was dead.

Answer: The same thing holds true. Was the shooting justified?

The difference between me and you guys seem to be that I am waiting for the facts to come out and you are basically trying to construct a scenario where the cop is always justified in shooting, no matter what.

That's not America. He was King George III's England or colonies when you had no right to life or liberty other than granted by the King. Here in America we can cuss out a cop. We can't constitute a threat to his life but cops can't say, "hey, any threat of any level is sufficient for me to take a life."

If you argue with me, then you are taking the latter position and you are a hypocrite if you say you would take it even if your son was being killed.

Croweder, odd that you said your brother rather than your son. If you do not have a son, you still could have said, "If I had a son..."

sounds like to me you are playing mental gymnastics with yourself.

As a prosecutor, I am bound to bring criminal cases whereever criminal offenses occur, whether the perpetrator wears a badge or not.

Now in the Ferguson case, as I said before, this appears to me to be a scared cop kid. No criminal charges.

In the St. Louis case, it seems to be an out of policy shooting. The cop should be fired from his job.

Not playing mental gymnastics, lol... My kids are 5 and 1, they aren't anywhere without their parents and certainly not walking the streets.. I have troublemaker siblings in their twenties so that is what relates to me personally... I know nothing about the St louis case only the Ferguson one, which is what I was commenting on...

I do think that how or what the president and attorney general choose to make their domestic agenda is extremely hypocritical and fuels the fire... Black on black crime they ignore, black on white crime they ignore, white on black crime/altercations gets interjection by our President and attorney general.. Of all the problems and crime in our country these are the cases that they choose to involve themselves in.... Seems pretty racist to me on their part...

Don't you think it is more important for the President to involve himself in the unprecedented murders in Chicago, you are safer in Afghanistan or Iraq then Chicago over the last ten years... It is also the presidents home town where he was a community organizer and his ex chief of staff is the mayor.. They don't make it part of their domestic agenda, why? Those murders are ok? it is a non issue for them why?

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 01:37PM by Crowder52.

I have no problem with anything you said Chyrene.
They make it seem like white cops are shooting innocent black kids like fish in a barrel.


If only the Media , the entire city of Ferguson , the government would also wait until the facts were in before judging anyone. I feel for those parents, losing a child must be the most horrible feeling on earth. But making them victims when there son is out robbing stores and beating up store owners and cops its just mind blowing to me. It justifies the looting and the rioting , and Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson will forever continue their disgraceful ways preying on the ignorant . We will have more Michael browns as long as the Attorney general of the US deems him a victim . Why isn't he visiting the store owner who was beat up. His business looted and burned!!? That's a victim. How about this Cop who was out trying to protect other innocents and now has to live with this the rest of his life? Could you touch his shoulder and tell him a fair trial is in order, no one will be rail roaded for the masses?




Kids going to be a Martyr. A hero to be worshipped.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no problem with anything you said Chyrene.
>
> They make it seem like white cops are shooting
> innocent black kids like fish in a barrel.

RESPONSE: Certainly the Sharptons are but most folks are saying, "Let's wait to get the facts".

But if you're on the officer's side, you might want to say, "Why wait? The officer was under attack."

But to be fair, how is jumping to the gun on your conclusions any LESS IMPROPER for one side than the other.

> If only the Media , the entire city of Ferguson ,
> the government would also wait until the facts
> were in before judging anyone.

RESPONSE: That's all I'm saying.


I feel for those
> parents, losing a child must be the most horrible
> feeling on earth. But making them victims when
> there son is out robbing stores and beating up
> store owners and cops its just mind blowing to me.


RESPONSE: If he was beating up the cop, then the shooting was justified.

BTW as far as the store owner is concerned, we saw that robbery on video. Michael Brown pulled away from the store owner when the store owner tried to take the cigars from his hand. Then Brown started walking out of the store and the store owner attempted to pursue. Michael Brown then walked back toward him in a threatening manner and the store owner then retreated to call the police.



> It justifies the looting and the rioting ,


and Al
> Sharpton and Jesse Jackson will forever continue
> their disgraceful ways preying on the ignorant .

RESPONSE: No it doesn't but most people act out of a warped sense of retaliating in a way they think is justice when it really is just returning evil with evil.

> We will have more Michael browns as long as the
> Attorney general of the US deems him a victim .

RESPONSE: A United States justice investigation was called for given the familial relationships of the police officer involved in the shooting and the familial relationships of the local District Attorney with that police agency.

Quite frankly, if I were the D.A. and had those same relationships, I WOULD RECUSE MYSELF (meaning take myself off the case) so that no one could accuse me of favoritism.


> Why isn't he visiting the store owner who was beat
> up. His business looted and burned!!?

RESPONSE: Actually I think that's a mistake I made earlier on too. I don't think the store that was the subject of the Michael Brown incident was ever burned down. I think it's still standing today. I could be wrong but I think the burning was of just other stores.



That's a
> victim. How about this Cop who was out trying to
> protect other innocents and now has to live with
> this the rest of his life?

RESPONSE: Again, you are drawing conclusions without having all the facts. Why THEN can you say you are NOT doing the same thing you accuse Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of...?????????????????


>Could you touch his
> shoulder and tell him a fair trial is in order, no
> one will be rail roaded for the masses?

RESPONSE: If I were the prosecutor and I determined he did no wrong then there would be no trial.

If I determined he did do wrong, my prosecution of him would not be exempted because he was a cop.

There is no way to railroad the cop because he still has to be tried by 12 citizens, Black AND WHITE in Ferguson.

As a prosecutor, I had the unique experience to sit on a first degree murder case as a juror in Pasadena. (Long Story, it was tried by Aaron Stovitz, the guy who had the Manson prosecution before they gave it to Vincent Bugliosi).

I can tell you that regardless of race, jurors take the admonitions seriously and search their hearts before voting either guilty or not guilty and do so based on their view of the evidence.

> Kids going to be a Martyr. A hero to be
> worshipped.

RESPONSE: I don't think so.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not playing mental gymnastics, lol... My kids are
> 5 and 1, they aren't anywhere without their
> parents and certainly not walking the streets.. I
> have troublemaker siblings in their twenties so
> that is what relates to me personally... I know
> nothing about the St louis case only the Ferguson
> one, which is what I was commenting on...
>
> I do think that how or what the president and
> attorney general choose to make their domestic
> agenda is extremely hypocritical and fuels the
> fire... Black on black crime they ignore, black on
> white crime they ignore, white on black
> crime/altercations gets interjection by our
> President and attorney general.. Of all the
> problems and crime in our country these are the
> cases that they choose to involve themselves
> in.... Seems pretty racist to me on their part...

>
> Don't you think it is more important for the
> President to involve himself in the unprecedented
> murders in Chicago, you are safer in Afghanistan
> or Iraq then Chicago over the last ten years... It
> is also the presidents home town where he was a
> community organizer and his ex chief of staff is
> the mayor.. They don't make it part of their
> domestic agenda, why? Those murders are ok? it is
> a non issue for them why?


RESPONSE: Pardon me, Crowder. I know you are easily offended but this is what little kids do to parents who point our their wrongs. "But what about Johnny! Look what he's doing."

Yes, Black on Black crime is a problem but unless you're talking about Black POLICEMEN shooting Black citizens, it's a FALSE EQUIVALENCY. That's why I did the "Look what Johnny's doing" bit.

But to let me diverge myself for a second, it's like what the gun nuts say whenever there is a Sandy Hook type shooting. "Why are you going to take the right to own a machine gun away from me when so many are dying in Chicago???"

The answer is "If I'm in Chicago, I can at least know the neighborhoods to avoid and if I live in that neighborhood, know when and when not to go out. But if I'm in a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado or a teacher in an elementary school in Sandy Hook, how do I know when some guy who was sane WHEN he brought his machine gun and now has GONE INSANE is going to strike????"

But to bring the case closer to your question, Crowder, as a Black resident of Chicago, you can do certain things which hopefully reduce your odds of becoming a crime victim but if you are a Black resident of Chicago, I would not advise you to run AWAY from the police.

What you have failed to realize while making this seemingly pat statement is that it contains the seeds of its own self-contradiction.

The reason that Obama and the A.G. concentrate on this is because these police actions being debated here are OFFICIAL ACTIONS. The assaults and murders being committed by thugs are Un-official actions.

Now I know your habit is to get offended when someone argues with you about race but since you chose to address me for the first time since you "went off" merely because I responded to some guy saying that "Blacks should just get over it" that he should "walk a mile in my shoes" before giving that advice.

If you couldn't help being offended by the latter comment, then unlike Treasure, who I know and appreciate is coming from a law enforcement position, then maybe you out to stay out of the conversation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2014 05:53PM by ChyrenB.

TCP, CHRYEN I really respect both you guys but this threads getting long in the tooth and really is not Dolphin related. The moderator plugged me several weeks ago for single post that 'he' did not like. I think this one needs to go.

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TCP, CHRYEN I really respect both you guys but
> this threads getting long in the tooth and really
> is not Dolphin related. The moderator plugged me
> several weeks ago for single post that 'he' did
> not like. I think this one needs to go.


That's cool I respect that Mizz but is this about you getting pegged or the actually subject matter?

Definitely not Dolphin related, but its something I needed to get off my chest and I think its much bigger then football. I really think nothing will be the same in just a few more weeks. Fair enough.......back to the Pre season.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Just a little back ground because I do work in Florida.......Trayvon was was sent to northern Fla by his mother because of the gang violence he was getting involved with. There are several Videos of him (now taken down) that were on You tube of him street fighting. he was into fighting , not robbing though. No question he beat the tar out of Mr Zimmerman and provoked it. However it was reported in such a slanted fashion that the government forced a trial . Even the photo's of him showed him as a young kid 3 yrs ago. He was much taller and bigger at the time of death.

People call us on kids in the neighborhood all the time. We meet out with them and tell us where they live , we run them and its over. I live in a community that backs that. My son has been stopped and he smiles and tells them his name. If Treyvon had done that he would be alive today.



I am afraid that would happen again if there was conclusive proof of him robbing and assaulting a store clerk. Media loves this stuff. They only report what they want you to hear. It all comes out eventually, but its really sickening.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

The thing about truth Chyren is there is a little bit of it in everything that has been said by you, myself and TCP IMO.... The answer isn't simple but the questions we all brought up are valid and need to be said IMO... I am going to abstain from getting into it further out of respect for Mizzou... Even though I know he was obviously most annoyed by what I said... I am not trying to insult anybody by what I said but acting like there isn't a seed of validity to it, I don't think is honest... I respect they way Mizzou handled himself in his objection of the subject and he is right.... SO I am out of the topic.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2014 03:39PM by Crowder52.

All Mizzou said was he could not figure why this thread went on,and a prior one was cut off. I don't get your point.

yeah people pretty much suck. all races and creeds

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Treasure, you're missing it. Trayvon fought out
> of fear and self-defense.
>
> He was being FOLLOWED. He turned around and
> confronted his follower and said, "What you doing
> following me?"
>
> Zimmerman HAD GOT OUT OF HIS CAR and followed
> Trayvon on foot AFTER the 911 lady told him, "WE
> DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT!"
>
> But if you want to comfort yourself with a
> different version of facts, that your business.
>
> As a lawyer, I learn to listen to the other side
> and rebut their arguments. Because if you keep
> on, like you do, singing the same ole song based
> on a set of circumstances that didn't exist, like
> what you're saying now, that it was Trayvon who
> stalked and assaulted Zimmerman the jury never
> decides in your favor.
>
> Deal with the facts. I had an oldest sister who
> used to chide me with this saying which you should
> take to heart, Treasure, "Tell it like it is! And
> not like you want it to be!"


FACT is he liked to fight. You tube videos proved that.

FACT is being followed with a guy on the phone is hardly a call for self defense. To turn and ATTACK. The police said had Trayvon NOT been shot he would have been arrested for aggravated battery.
Go to the root of it bud. He made a BIG thing out of a little thing. He was moved to that northern city because of all the violence down south and the trouble he was getting into. His mother stated she could not control him anymore and sent him to his fathers.

If someone is following me , I ask why are you following me? I might even call 911. Never do I turn an attack anyone who is not attacking me. PERIOD. DONE. Nothing Zimmerman did deserved that level of response.

This is exactly what I mean. They person gets killed like in Treys case and Michaels. Sad. Tragic. But immediately they are presumed victims and the crimes they committed before hand , that lead to the shooting, is forgotten.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Guys, I want to thank you for keeping this discussion very thoughtful and very civil.

Some have asked why I let it go on as long as I did. That's basically why. This wasn't a Republican vs Democrat thing, it was a very well conducted discussion. Which had nothing to do with our Dolphins, but still, it was thoughtful and respectful. Emphasis on "was" because it is now over. We're gonna quit while we're ahead.

I wouldn't have let something like this go on once the regular season started, which is pretty darn soon. Go Phins!