captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder52 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Just from my experience, but rarely do you
> spend
> > a
> > > 5th rd pick on a kicker who you dont plan on
> > > making the team... Carpenter is going to be a
> > > salary dump victim just like Bess. Philbin is
> a
> > > new coach, new system, he wants his guys..
> > > I heard rumblings that Philbin wanted a
> bigger
> > > target then Bess going across the middle. And
> > also
> > > that he questioned whether or not Bess could
> > have
> > > competed in the last couple games, but chose
> > not
> > > to because they didnt mean anything...
> > >
> > > I like Bess, and thought he was a good
> > insurance
> > > policy, but just like we moved on from R
> Bush,
> > we
> > > moved on from him, also for the purpose that
> he
> > > would have prevented other guys from getting
> > more
> > > playing time..
> > >
> > > Bush would have been a progress stopper for
> > Lamar
> > > Miller and Bess would have been a progress
> > stopper
> > > for the other WR's.. Or a backup making top
> > slot
> > > WR money... At the end of the day it is what
> it
> > > is, Philbin is making the roster the way he
> > wants
> > > it.. And most Sparano guys are not really
> > invited
> > > it seems...
> >
> >
> > Carpenter is gone.
> >
> > The only reason Ireland is saying all the right
> > things, about how good he is and that its a
> > competition on equal footing, is because he's
> > going to try to trade him.
>
> ************************************************
>
> Doubtful any team will trade for Carpenter. Miami
> will have to release him, then another team will
> just have to compete against any others that are
> interested.
>
> If Miami is able to trade him, Miami will be lucky
> to get a 7th rounder.

You don't know until you try.

We traded olindo mare a few years ago, carpenter is comparable.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> captkoi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > THE Truth Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Crowder52 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Just from my experience, but rarely do you
> > spend
> > > a
> > > > 5th rd pick on a kicker who you dont plan
> on
> > > > making the team... Carpenter is going to be
> a
> > > > salary dump victim just like Bess. Philbin
> is
> > a
> > > > new coach, new system, he wants his guys..
> > > > I heard rumblings that Philbin wanted a
> > bigger
> > > > target then Bess going across the middle.
> And
> > > also
> > > > that he questioned whether or not Bess
> could
> > > have
> > > > competed in the last couple games, but
> chose
> > > not
> > > > to because they didnt mean anything...
> > > >
> > > > I like Bess, and thought he was a good
> > > insurance
> > > > policy, but just like we moved on from R
> > Bush,
> > > we
> > > > moved on from him, also for the purpose
> that
> > he
> > > > would have prevented other guys from
> getting
> > > more
> > > > playing time..
> > > >
> > > > Bush would have been a progress stopper for
> > > Lamar
> > > > Miller and Bess would have been a progress
> > > stopper
> > > > for the other WR's.. Or a backup making top
> > > slot
> > > > WR money... At the end of the day it is
> what
> > it
> > > > is, Philbin is making the roster the way he
> > > wants
> > > > it.. And most Sparano guys are not really
> > > invited
> > > > it seems...
> > >
> > >
> > > Carpenter is gone.
> > >
> > > The only reason Ireland is saying all the
> right
> > > things, about how good he is and that its a
> > > competition on equal footing, is because
> he's
> > > going to try to trade him.
> >
> >
> ************************************************
> >
> > Doubtful any team will trade for Carpenter.
> Miami
> > will have to release him, then another team
> will
> > just have to compete against any others that
> are
> > interested.
> >
> > If Miami is able to trade him, Miami will be
> lucky
> > to get a 7th rounder.
>
> You don't know until you try.
>
> We traded olindo mare a few years ago, carpenter
> is comparable.

******************************************

No doubt, but that's what I am seeing, mainly because of his contract. I highly doubt any other team will want to pick up that contract. They would rather wait and then redo it.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > captkoi Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > THE Truth Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Crowder52 Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Just from my experience, but rarely do
> you
> > > spend
> > > > a
> > > > > 5th rd pick on a kicker who you dont plan
> > on
> > > > > making the team... Carpenter is going to
> be
> > a
> > > > > salary dump victim just like Bess.
> Philbin
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > new coach, new system, he wants his guys..
>
> > > > > I heard rumblings that Philbin wanted a
> > > bigger
> > > > > target then Bess going across the middle.
> > And
> > > > also
> > > > > that he questioned whether or not Bess
> > could
> > > > have
> > > > > competed in the last couple games, but
> > chose
> > > > not
> > > > > to because they didnt mean anything...
> > > > >
> > > > > I like Bess, and thought he was a good
> > > > insurance
> > > > > policy, but just like we moved on from R
> > > Bush,
> > > > we
> > > > > moved on from him, also for the purpose
> > that
> > > he
> > > > > would have prevented other guys from
> > getting
> > > > more
> > > > > playing time..
> > > > >
> > > > > Bush would have been a progress stopper
> for
> > > > Lamar
> > > > > Miller and Bess would have been a
> progress
> > > > stopper
> > > > > for the other WR's.. Or a backup making
> top
> > > > slot
> > > > > WR money... At the end of the day it is
> > what
> > > it
> > > > > is, Philbin is making the roster the way
> he
> > > > wants
> > > > > it.. And most Sparano guys are not really
> > > > invited
> > > > > it seems...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Carpenter is gone.
> > > >
> > > > The only reason Ireland is saying all the
> > right
> > > > things, about how good he is and that its a
> > > > competition on equal footing, is because
> > he's
> > > > going to try to trade him.
> > >
> > >
> >
> ************************************************
> > >
> > > Doubtful any team will trade for Carpenter.
> > Miami
> > > will have to release him, then another team
> > will
> > > just have to compete against any others that
> > are
> > > interested.
> > >
> > > If Miami is able to trade him, Miami will be
> > lucky
> > > to get a 7th rounder.
> >
> > You don't know until you try.
> >
> > We traded olindo mare a few years ago,
> carpenter
> > is comparable.
>
> ******************************************
>
> No doubt, but that's what I am seeing, mainly
> because of his contract. I highly doubt any other
> team will want to pick up that contract. They
> would rather wait and then redo it.

I would think that any team that picked him up would either be desperate for a kicker (injury, etc) or would do it based on a contract extension. Or both.

Or they will know, hey Miami isnt going to carry 2 kickers on the roster, especially with one making Carpenter money. So lets just wait until they cut him, so they eat the cap money. Then sign him for less... Only way it doesnt go down like that, is if multiple teams are after him, and one team thinks the only way they get him is if they acquire him in a trade. Before he is able to sign with some other team besides them.. But that is probably a ten percent chance at best..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or they will know, hey Miami isnt going to carry 2
> kickers on the roster, especially with one making
> Carpenter money. So lets just wait until they cut
> him, so they eat the cap money. Then sign him for
> less... Only way it doesnt go down like that, is
> if multiple teams are after him, and one team
> thinks the only way they get him is if they
> acquire him in a trade. Before he is able to sign
> with some other team besides them.. But that is
> probably a ten percent chance at best..


The problem for the other team is if we cut him, he can go wherever he wants. And as you said, if there's more than one team interested it could be expensive to sign him.

Not predicting we will trade him. I'm only saying Ireland is going to try.

With the expended rosters this time of year, and with contracts not being guaranteed until the 1st week of the regular season, we can sit on him until late August and see if a market develops.

I'm just going on record saying trading Bess for a 4th was a BS move IMO. I mean we wound up wasting the pick by jumping back into R3 didn't we???

If so -- that's so totally sad.

If Ireland messes up anything it was when he traded out of that 3rd rd pick and then gave up more it seemed to come back in to the 3rd for a later pick... And we probably lost a player there as well.. He did it for value, cause there were supposedly a couple guys he liked still available, then it seems those guys came off the board quick and he kind of gave up alot to get a lesser player then he probably wanted with that pick.. bad move

Bess, seems to me more of a Philbin issue then an Ireland issue... THe coach didnt want him from what I have heard...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 01:13PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Ireland messes up anything it was when he
> traded out of that 3rd rd pick and then gave up
> more it seemed to come back in to the 3rd for a
> later pick... And we probably lost a player there
> as well.. He did it for value, cause there were
> supposedly a couple guys he liked still available,
> then it seems those guys came off the board quick
> and he kind of gave up alot to get a lesser player
> then he probably wanted with that pick.. bad move
>
> Bess, seems to me more of a Philbin issue then an
> Ireland issue... THe coach didnt want him from
> what I have heard...


Ireland got the best of both of those deals.

And what he got to move down was less than what he gave up to move up. Not that I love the move (I'd rather have had Stedman Bailey at 83 or taken the risk that Davis would have fallen 15 more spots and hung onto the 5th and 7th).

I was thinking about this the other day...can you think many trades, if any, where he didn't get the better of the deal value wise? I'm not talking about who he picked. Obviously Daniel Thomas didn't work out. But how many instances have there been where he overpaid for a draft slot or a player he traded for?

I guess you can say he didn't get value for Bess but according to what people said we'd get, he did ok. Moved up in the 4th and got a 5th for a 7th.

There's got to be some. Probably where he moved up. But most of those moves, outside of Thomas and Jordan were mid to late round trades.

btw...just looked it up. We were +51.4 points on the trade up for that turned into Daniel Thomas.

the trade out and back into the 3d makes no sense to me. if we traded out then it means we were OK with possibly losing out on whomever would go before our turn in the 4th. Well what changed? Did Ireland actually think Will Davis was some player he'd have no shot at with his 2d 3d round pick who was stunningly falling and he better move back up and grab him? This is a guy who was a reach by at least 1-2 rounds by all accounts. Really makes no sense.
I would have much rather stayed put and taken a guy like Bailey. Word is we'd have taken Austin at 12, and had a call into the WR the pats took, so we certainly we looking to take a WR, and we ended up taking no one.
that's my gripe with this draft. Will Davis, Dallas T, and no WR.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

We traded 82 in the third for 104 and 106. Then we gave up 109, 146 and 224 to get to 93 in the third... He did not get the best of both those deals IMO...To me it was not a good move. He lost Jordan Reed and Steadman Bailey..for what the difference between pick 106 and 109.. and gave up 11 spots in the third and a 5th and a 7th to get 104... I think the value trade backfired on him and he didnt get much value.. Should have taken the player he had slotted at 82 IMO...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We traded 82 in the third for 104 and 106. Then
> we gave up 109, 146 and 224 to get to 93 in the
> third... He did not get the best of both those
> deals IMO...To me it was not a good move. He lost
> Jordan Reed and Steadman Bailey..for what the
> difference between pick 106 and 109.. and gave up
> 11 spots in the third and a 5th and a 7th to get
> 104... I think the value trade backfired on him
> and he didnt get much value.. Should have taken
> the player he had slotted at 82 IMO...

I think you are right and the report I read was wrong.


I just looked it up on the trade value chart. #82 was worth 180pts. #104 & #106 totaled 168 points. The 12 point difference is an early 7th round pick. Not a big issue, but not a win either.


The trade back up (4,5,7 for a #93) looks like an even swap give or take a point or two either way.


As I said on draft day, I'd much rather have had Stedman Bailey at #82 or just sat at 104, hoped for Davis to be there and hung on to the 5th and 7th we gave up.

Its not like there was a run on CB's between 82 and 93, or that the GB was giving that pick away like the Raiders did in round #1. Davis better turn out to be a starting CB or its a bad move.

I am not sure about the exact points value but to me it just didn't make a lot of sense. Seems like he tried to get slick, it backfired on him and he panicked and traded it back up to salvage the least of the 3 players on that vertical he really wanted... To me if you have a pick of 3 guys you like, screw value, pick the one you really want or fits the biggest need instead of trying to get cute with it..

If Steadman Bailey or Jordan Reed wind up being more valuable players then Will Davis, he screwed up.... Although Dion Sims could also be a wildcard in the equation of the fate of the moves..

The draft is so fluid, ever move you make like that can kind of reverberates through the rest of your picks... In fantasy football drafts, one bad draft move can have you chasing your tail, trying to catch up a step behind the rest of the draft... You planned on solving the TE issues with a 3rd rd pick it doesn't happen so you get one in the 5th, which means another position or guy you wanted in the 5th wasnt taking, etc.. Not saying that happened, but it can.. The draft is quite a wild unpredictable part of the game..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 04:07PM by Crowder52.

ireland outsmarts himself more often than not in these deals. scary thought

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

BNF is correct....wevr gonna flat out regret letting Bess go for nothing! That's my feeling and I am sticking to it.

Try not to get emotionally attached to players guys. Bess was a great slot receiver. The fact is though that he is slow, can't slide outside, and is horrible getting into open space in the red zone. Most importantly, he DOESN'T FIT OUR SCHEME now. Installing the WC offense basically made Bess the odd man out. It also doesn't help that he pissed off the FO last year(legit or not) by sitting out those last 3 games and not going on IR. Letting Bess go isn't going to come back as some monumental mistake guys. He isn't going to another team and catching 125 passes with 20 TDs. He was a good player and he gave us some good years but it was time he moved on. I wish him the best.

steviec13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BNF is correct....wevr gonna flat out regret
> letting Bess go for nothing! That's my feeling and
> I am sticking to it.


Mike Gilisee is "nothing"?

Week 1....Miami @ Cleveland. Is anyone seriously worried that we won't be able to stop Davone Bess?

The Browns had a terrible offense last year so what did they do? They used their first 4 out of 5 draft picks on defense with only a 7th rounder on an o-lineman....and a 5th on a slot reciever.

Josh Gordan is a promising young WR that should approach 1000 yards in his second year. Nothing special so far.

Greg Little is the other starting WR. He is not even as good as Gordan.

Davone Bess and David Nelson are the FO's answer for a struggling QB and receiving game.

They did not bring in competition at QB for Weeden and they did nothing to upgrade the running game.

Can't say I'm too impressed with Michael Lombardi's first off season as GM.

I just feel bad for Bess, who is going to a team that may have the 1st overall pick next year.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i agree with stevie and nasty fish...
>
>
> Letting bess go for a 4th was a mistake.....I
> always believed having as many great receivers as
> we can is a good thing. Its always a good thing.


I wish we had gotten a 4th for Bess. Actually what we got was much less, since we traded our 4th and 7th along with him. Upshot is in exchange for Bess, we (1) moved up a whopping 6 spots in the 4th round, and (2) swapped a 7th for a 5th. That's like getting a 6th round pick for him all told.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samsam3738 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > i agree with stevie and nasty fish...
> >
> >
> > Letting bess go for a 4th was a mistake.....I
> > always believed having as many great receivers
> as
> > we can is a good thing. Its always a good
> thing.
>
>
> I wish we had gotten a 4th for Bess. Actually what
> we got was much less, since we traded our 4th and
> 7th along with him. Upshot is in exchange for
> Bess, we (1) moved up a whopping 6 spots in the
> 4th round, and (2) swapped a 7th for a 5th. That's
> like getting a 6th round pick for him all told.


The move up ion the 4th round from 111 to 104 netted us 14 points.

The Move form 217 (7th) to 164 (5th) netted another 21.2 points in value for at total net value of 35.2 points.

35.2 points is roughly the value of the 12th or 13th pick in the 5th round.

I understand your theory about points truth but i think its just a matter of that we let go of a player who is a very good player and knows the system....in favor a a 4th rounder or what ever whos coming out of college and we do not even know if he is any good or not..We do not even know if he is going to make the team.

I wouldnt take that chance....


We need all the good players that we can have....We let welker go and i was always against it....and then we drafter satelle i believe with the pick we got from welker..

where is welker now....and where is satelle now in oakland...

Meaning we traded a good player for scraps for nothing...

I have always been against trading a good to great player for a draft pick.

In other words they are betting that the player they are going to draft is going to be as good or better than bess..


Huge Gamble..

But all this might have to do with a problem bess had with a coach or something like that. exchange of words with a coach i believe i read somewhere. Dont remember where though.

There was a game last year and a play where bess was wide open but tannehill didnt see him....If i remember correctly bess came to the sidelines throwing a fit.....I think thats where it all started.

I might be wrong though.

No way you spin "the truth" the trade down and subsequent trade back was a BUSH MOVE all the way!

Seriously looking like a monkey focking a football.

Beyond that --- the move netted the 2nd CB NOT the RB.

Sam, Everybody liked Bess.

he was good player, a better kid, a hard worker, and a team player who's rags to riches story as an UDFA was inspiring.

But that doesn't change the fact that he didn't fit this coaching staff's offense and that his contract was over after this coming season.

I can understand fans not wanting to part with a guy they are emotionally attached to, but as a GM, when your coach tells you a player doesn't fit the direction they want to go in you have two choices; You can tell your coach to live with it until the contract plays out, or you can trade him for whatever you can get.

In this case we got a 5th round pick. I can understand that some don't think that's enough, even if its the best we could do at the time.

For me, I'm in favor of trading the guys who have no future here. I'd rather get something, anything for them that gives me an opportunity to effect a long term change on this team, that I know I'm not getting from them as a back up.

The trade for Welker was a different deal. Its not the same since it was a FA issue. Even though we got solid compensation for a solid player (nothing really wrong with that) we blew it on the back end with the draft pick. That can happen.

Even so, in this case we got Mike Gillisee for Bess. We'll have to see if Gillesse is a steal, a decent player or a washout. But if we kept Bess for this year and let him walk for nothing, we don't get Gillisee. We get nothing.

I'd rather have the lottery ticket that is Mike Gillisee than have a 4th string WR who would get passed over for playing time (barring multiple injuries) by a staff that doesn't want him.

BigNastyFish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No way you spin "the truth" the trade down and
> subsequent trade back was a BUSH MOVE all the
> way!
>
> Seriously looking like a monkey focking a
> football.
>
> Beyond that --- the move netted the 2nd CB NOT
> the RB.

I think you are mixing up the trades BNF.

The Davis (our 2nd CB ) pick was the result of the trade down from 82 which netted a pair of early 4ths and the subsequent trade back up to 93 which cost us an early 4th, early 5th and early 7th. And yes, that was at BEST a questionable move and probably a bad one.

In exchange for Bess we swapped 4ths with Cleveland, moving up from 111 to 104. We also sent them a mid-7th for a their late 5th (pick #164). That pick, #164, was RB - Mike Gillisee.

Nobody is saying that the trade down out of the 3rd and the trade back up into the third was for a RB.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2013 10:06AM by THE Truth.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > samsam3738 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > i agree with stevie and nasty fish...
> > >
> > >
> > > Letting bess go for a 4th was a mistake.....I
> > > always believed having as many great
> receivers
> > as
> > > we can is a good thing. Its always a good
> > thing.
> >
> >
> > I wish we had gotten a 4th for Bess. Actually
> what
> > we got was much less, since we traded our 4th
> and
> > 7th along with him. Upshot is in exchange for
> > Bess, we (1) moved up a whopping 6 spots in the
> > 4th round, and (2) swapped a 7th for a 5th.
> That's
> > like getting a 6th round pick for him all told.
>
>
> The move up ion the 4th round from 111 to 104
> netted us 14 points.
>
> The Move form 217 (7th) to 164 (5th) netted
> another 21.2 points in value for at total net
> value of 35.2 points.
>
> 35.2 points is roughly the value of the 12th or
> 13th pick in the 5th round.


Ted Ginn territory

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Omar Kelly ?@OmarKelly 10m Dolphins
GM Jeff Ireland traded Davone Bess to Cleveland for the equivalent of 35.2 points, which is worth the 14th pick in the 5th round.

Omar Kelly ?@OmarKelly 2m
In summary, Jeff Ireland took the Phins' 11 initial draft picks & Davone Bess and flipped them into 9 players and +537.2 in trade value.

Omar Kelly ?@OmarKelly 11m
Dolphins GM Jeff Ireland shorted Oakland 520 points for the trade up from No. 12 to No. 3 to take Dion Jordan.

Omar Kelly ?@OmarKelly 10m
Dolphins GM Jeff Ireland lost 22 points in value for the 3rd round trade down with the Saints (picking up two fourth-round picks).

Ireland liked Bess by all accounts, He like him so much he made him one of the highest paid Slot WRs in the NFL when he signed his contract a couple years back..
The coach didn't want him and didn't like him in the system.. He wants a bigger target going across the middle.. If Philbin had liked Bess in the system Ireland would have kept him and resigned him... No sense in getting mad about Bess, I thought it was foolish at first, but if the coaches doesn't want him the coach doesn't want him...

We can't get any worse in WR TD or WR redzone offense then we were last year...So the move will be right no matter what most likely... Unless Bess goes and has a Brandon Marshall type season in his first year with his new team...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche