Ravens were better all around.

We looked like a team not ready for the playoffs. Which is good. That game was a valuble learning experience for all and will do this team well next time.

Go Phins! 2008 AFC East Champs!

Yes chad is the franchize qb look where he got us this year. We'll be even better with him next year with a few upgrades. I cant wait till next season!!!!!

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If a new guy takes passes away from Ginn, then is
> Ginn even worth keeping?
>
> Yes. Ginn is relatively cheap and locked up for
> another 3 years. He would be the best 4th WR in
> the NFL. We'd probably see him in KO and Punts
> lot more.

5 year...$13 million. He's a LOT more expensive than Camarillo and Bess, and he's not even HALF as productive.

Ginn - 49 yards per game. .25 TDs per start.
Bess - 61 yards per game. 0 TDs per start. (numbers are based on his starts only)
Camarillo - 56 yards per game. .18 TDs per start.


Overall, the numbers are fairly similar. Ginn has the distinct disadvantage of being the designated deep threat on a team that can't throw deep. Despite that fact, he usually draws double coverage when he goes deep - leaving Camarillo or Bess in single coverage.

Pennington did play a lot worse than I expected... but its hard to put the entire blame on him when.

A) The running game wasn't working
He was getting pressured the entire game
and C) WR's were not getting open.

At some point you HAVE to take some risks in an attempt to make some plays. The Ravens smacked us in the mouth and we couldn't do anything about it.

Do I wish he was smarter with the ball, and saw a punt as a POSITIVE outcome?? Yes, because with the way our defense played that was a winnable game. But, reality is... playing that way it is quite possible our offense went nowhere and we would have lost anyways.

Now, if we had a successful running game and our WR's were making plays and he STILL threw a ton of pics it would be a different story. But, IMO you can't blame a guy on a struggling team for trying to make something happen.

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ginn - 49 yards per game. .25 TDs per start.
> Bess - 61 yards per game. 0 TDs per start.
> (numbers are based on his starts only)
> Camarillo - 56 yards per game. .18 TDs per
> start.
>
>
> Overall, the numbers are fairly similar. Ginn has
> the distinct disadvantage of being the designated
> deep threat on a team that can't throw deep.
> Despite that fact, he usually draws double
> coverage when he goes deep - leaving Camarillo or
> Bess in single coverage.

And, of course, Ginn was a high 1st-rounder. The other 2 were undrafted.

True, but to say he is not even half as productive as Bess or Camarillo is not true. Also, they have entirely different roles in the offense. The role filled by Bess and Camarillo plays to the strength of the QB. The role played by Ginn does not.

True. I overstated it. I honestly hope Ginn proves me wrong next year. I still think we need a #1 WR.

We got beat at the lines

I woud not blame the O-lines though for his poor decisons & passes. Not a good time to have your worst game

Other than Bess we have no Wr's. Did Fasano even play?

jlyell13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We got beat at the lines
>
> I woud not blame the O-lines though for his poor
> decisons & passes. Not a good time to have your
> worst game
>
The game was atypical for Pennington. He wasn't just having a bad day. Baltimore played outstanding defense, the gameplan dictated Chad attempt passes downfield, and he was being pressured all day.

I said relatively. Try getting a FA WR for less than that. Unless we are picking up bums off the street, we are looking at starting negotiations at 2 Mil/year. Ginn is better than most bums, and that cap hit isn't that huge.

Chad had a bad game, but the coaching deserves part of the blame.

They were playing double coverage deep for most of the game and we threw right into it even when under pressure.

Chad had a fantastic year and is responsible for most of the success this year.

Add in a little more pass rush, a new wr threat, and a stud LB and we'll be giving teams trouble next year.

All in all - What a GREAT YEAR!

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The game was atypical for Pennington.
>
> Uh.. no it wasn't. Atypical would have been 1 INT
> at the most and a passer rating in at least the
> 90s.

No, that would be "typical", not "atypical" (which are opposites).

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quote: "We made chicken salad out of chicken $H!T
> this year:
>
> LOL! Too bad Marnio wasn't QB this year.


LOL It was you thats right now i remember who said it.

Its the truth.

Almost no talent. Goes to show you how good coaching goes such a long way.

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chad is a good QB and a good field general, but he
> has limitations (as dolfanmark pointed out above).
> Can he win in the playoffs? Yes, he can; but the
> circumstances have to be right.
> If the rest of
> the team is good enough for our QB to basically
> manage the game and distribute short passes then
> Chad can do that. He'll make good decisions and
> manage the game as well as anyone.

RESPONSE: But the problem is that, albeit early in the playoffs, the type of superior defensive play exhibited by the Ravens is something you have to expect to confront when you are in the playoffs. There is rarely a "softy" opponent in the playoffs and even if you do get one this week, you are not going to get one next week. (Now concededly we were an inferior team to Baltimore and I agree with those who said we had no reasonable expectation of winning absent sheer luck breaking our way on the majority of plays).

> However, we
> can't expect him to win in the playoffs if he
> regularly has to throw intermediate and deep
> passes. That's just not his strength.

RESPONSE: But that has to be the strength of the quarterback of a team (and I'm talking about next year now) that wants to go to the Super Bowl or farther in the playoffs than just one game.

>
> The upside of Chad's game is that, in most cases,
> he plays mistake free football. Sunday was
> obviously an exception to that. The downside of
> his game is that really good defenses will take
> away the run and the short pass by crowding the
> line of scrimmage. In that scenario, if he makes
> a couple of mistakes (as he did on Sunday) and we
> get behind by a couple of scores, he is forced to
> try to do things that he is just not that good
> at.

RESPONSE: Agreed.

>
> The threat of the deep ball is just such a huge
> weapon. Look at the Ravens and the Titans. Right
> now, their QBs are nothing special. Flacco is
> very good for a rookie, but he is not a great NFL
> QB at this point in time. However, he has a big
> arm - which defenses have to respect. When he
> lines up behind center the deep ball is a real
> threat. When Pennington is in the game great
> defenses do not respect our ability to go deep, so
> they take away the run and the short passes.


RESPONSE: But do you remember how Chad Henne played in pre-season? He had just as big and good of a big arm.


> Bottom line. We have a good team, and I think
> Chad is a good caretaker at the QB position.

RESPONSE: Yes, but this year should be it. I don't see much point in going through all of next year just to be beat in the playoffs like we were last week. Yes, the O-line was getting "murderlized" by the Ravens defensive front, meaning Pennington had to get rid of the ball fast but remember how Henne was rocketing the ball out during pre-season, even under pressure?

> If
> we had the Ravens' defense and better blocking on
> the o-line, I am sure that we could win a Super
> Bowl with Chad. But that is not likely to happen
> next year.

RESPONSE: But we may not even have an 11-5 record next year because you have to remember our finish will earn us a much tougher schedule. With a much tougher schedule, Chad's poor arm is unlikely to produce even an 11-5 record. Remember the Ravens had that record with that defense and with Flacco, a much better quarterback.

> In order to win a championship, we may
> need a guy who can throw the deep ball and win
> with his arm - not just his head.

RESPONSE: Again, agreed.

> At some point,
> Henne's ability to throw deep and prevent defenses
> from crowding the line of scrimmage will outweigh
> the experience and intangibles that Pennington
> brings to the game. That probably won't happen in
> 2009; but I hope it happens in 2010.

RESPONSE: This is why I posted. I disagree. If Henne outplays Pennington this pre-season there is no reason, from my viewpoint to suffer a worse season in 2009 than we did in 2008 which will happen because we will be playing a much tougher schedule.

> When it does
> happen it will increase our ability to win in the
> playoffs.


RESPONSE: Which I think should be next year in 2009 not 2010.

I'll be honest and I say that I hope Henne is ready next year, but I know that this organization does not want to take a step backwards in 2009 - nor should they. If Henne needs another year to watch and learn then that is what will happen. They won't make him the starter unless he is ready to win.

In fact, Sparano has already said that Pennington will start next year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2009 04:31PM by Northeast Fin Fan.

> Remember the Ravens had that record with that defense and with Flacco,
> a much better quarterback.

You're kidding, right? Flacco a MUCH better QB than Pennington? Check the stats. Check the number of wins that were directly attributed to the QB on those teams. Flacco is NOT a MUCH better QB that Pennington. In fact, he's not even AS good...at least not yet.

Montequi, I just cannot see how a quarterback that can only throw short passes and then they float like balloons causing me to hold my breath until our receiver catches them, even though he has a great quarterback efficiency rating, can be a better quarterback than one who has a complete set of passing skills.

Granted that Flacco had a great defense but also Pennington had a great running game that called for him to not be relied on to win games.

The question is not who can be a better quarterback ASSUMING THAT HIS TEAM CAN WIN WITHOUT A GOOD QUARTERBACK, instead the question is which of the two would be a better quarterback IF THE TEAM HAD TO RELY ON HIS PASSING SKILLS TO WIN. IMHO, that is clearly Flacco and Henne, for that matter.

The guy above was right. On Sunday, we saw a graphic explanation of why the Jets were willing to bench their starting quarterback for (albeit a great one) a quarterback with one foot on the retirement boat and the other on a banana peel.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Montequi, I just cannot see how a quarterback that
> can only throw short passes and then they float
> like balloons causing me to hold my breath until
> our receiver catches them, even though he has a
> great quarterback efficiency rating, can be a
> better quarterback than one who has a complete set
> of passing skills.
>
> Granted that Flacco had a great defense but also
> Pennington had a great running game that called
> for him to not be relied on to win games.
>
> The question is not who can be a better
> quarterback ASSUMING THAT HIS TEAM CAN WIN WITHOUT
> A GOOD QUARTERBACK, instead the question is which
> of the two would be a better quarterback IF THE
> TEAM HAD TO RELY ON HIS PASSING SKILLS TO WIN.
> IMHO, that is clearly Flacco and Henne, for that
> matter.
>
> The guy above was right. On Sunday, we saw a
> graphic explanation of why the Jets were willing
> to bench their starting quarterback for (albeit a
> great one) a quarterback with one foot on the
> retirement boat and the other on a banana peel.

Would you say Favre was a better QB than Pennington this year as well? What about Michael Vick? I could go on with the list of strong-armed QBs. We haven't seen much from Flacco this year. His year has been a lot like Rothlisberger's first. He's got LOTs of talent around him. He's rarely pressured. He basically throws a pass when the play calls for it and doesn't have to deal with pressure. Did you see what he did when we blitzed him? Not a single completed pass!! Pennington, on the other hand, completed a number of passes while being pressured.

I really thought you were a more intelligent fan than that.

Its not about just being "strong-armed", its about being accurate on deep passes.

Chad is accurate on short passes and intermediate passes across the middle. Other than that, he doesnt have the shoulder for deep outs and flys.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you say Favre was a better QB than
> Pennington this year as well?
RESPONSE: Favre will always be a better quarterback than Pennington. Whether IN TERMS OF STATISTICS Favre grades out better in any given year is a different question. Yes Pennington had the highest quarterback rating of any NFL quarterback this year. But the fact remains that his quarterback skills are limited. He may rival Griese in intelligence and being a field general but that can only take you so far. (And lest any misunderstand, Griese is my hero and the reason I began to root for the Dolphins because he was the quarterback at the college I attended as a Freshman Purdue, in the year that we went to the Rose Bowl). But Griese had a decent, though not perfect, long arm and I remember a drunk fan that sat next to me at Ross Ade stadium screaming at every game "Give 'em the Bomb, Griese, Give 'em the bomb." Nobody will ever say, "Give 'em the Bomb, Pennington." Cuz he can't do it.

In other words, you are mixing apples and oranges when you talk about overall performance which has a lot to do with the performance of your teammates and quarterback skills. I was talking about quarterback skills.


>What about Michael
> Vick? I could go on with the list of strong-armed
> QBs. We haven't seen much from Flacco this year.
> His year has been a lot like Rothlisberger's
> first. He's got LOTs of talent around him. He's
> rarely pressured. He basically throws a pass when
> the play calls for it and doesn't have to deal
> with pressure.

RESPONSE: But he has better tools and skills to deal with pressure than Pennington. That is what everybody on my side of the question is trying to say.


Did you see what he did when we
> blitzed him? Not a single completed pass!!

RESPONSE: I'm not sure that that is scientific or logically valid. You are taking a certain number of situations in a game in which even fans on this board complained that we were not getting enough pressure and extrapolating from that his overall ability to deal with pressure from those FEW times we were able to get pressure.

And then again, my point is that he has the physical ability to deal with pressure that Chad does not.

> Pennington, on the other hand, completed a number
> of passes while being pressured.

RESPONSE: He also threw a great number of interceptions while being pressured.

>
> I really thought you were a more intelligent fan
> than that.

ChyrenB,

you said Flacco was MUCH better than Pennington. You've made an argument that he's more accurate throwing deep, but besides that how is he FAR better...or better at all? He has ONE skill that is better than Pennington. ONE...that's IT!! If you really feel that throwing deep is the most important skill for a QB, then go root for the Lions or any of the other franchises that have attempted to hang their hats on strong-armed QBs rather than great field generals.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2009 10:12AM by montequi.

I want to make it clear, Pennington is better than Flacco....by alot. My comment was only speaking on his deep ball accuracy.

Pennington is our leader. Ray Lewis is Baltimores.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB,
>
> you said Flacco was MUCH better than Pennington.
> You've made an argument that he's more accurate
> throwing deep, but besides that how is he FAR
> better...or better at all? He has ONE skill that
> is better than Pennington. ONE...that's IT!! If
> you really feel that throwing deep is the most
> important skill for a QB, then go root for the
> Lions or any of the other franchises that have
> attempted to hang their hats on strong-armed QBs
> rather than great field generals.

RESPONSE: No, what I am saying that throwing deep with accuracy is a NECESSARY skill and without it, you are not much use as a quarterback. You can manage a good running team playing a schedule based on a 1-15 season, but lacking EVEN JUST ONE ESSENTIAL OR NECESSARY SKILL of a quarterback, you are not going to be the quarterback needed by a team that wants to contend for the Super Bowl.

It's just like you have a surgeon that can do everything well but close up the incision after you have addressed whatever was wrong inside the body. How would you rate him as a surgeon? Probably not to good if that is a necessary skill of a surgeon during an operation. (Just using an example, I really don't know if the surgeon closes the incision, I always thought so but nonetheless you get the point. An employee has to be able to be AT LEAST DECENT AT performing all of the skills of his job and if there is one necessary skill that he just can't do, he maybe be a "we-can-make-do-with-him" guy but he is hardly a guy that you should consider if you have an option.)

Now, I am truly sorry if the feelings of some of you fans are hurt. Yes, we have a lot to thank Pennington for in terms of how pitiful last season was but it is time to move on. Pennington was certainly better than the alternatives we had at the beginning of the season, which was either going with older retreads or risking Henne in his rookie year.

Again, I am saying that this pre-season should be a real competition. If Henne outplays Pennington like he did in the last pre-season, I think that Henne will be given the job.

Now, I note that according to one poster Sparano has said that Pennington will be his starting quarterback. I would say that too for political reasons. What else could he say? He would not say that the job is now open.

But if anyone saw Bill Parcells throw his eyeglass case down in frustration during the game, they know that if Henne plays better than Pennington in pre-season (which Parcells will be watching) NO WAY does Pennington remain the starting quarterback.