How far up the draft do you think we can get if we traded our 1st and our 2 second round picks. I want Philly's nbr 4 to get Fisher or Joeckel.

Too much?

A first & second +Martin(say we sign Winston) or +Odrick?

WHAT?? you really want to trade up in this crappy-at-the-top draft, for an OT? And you'd be willing to give up our 2 second round picks to do it (supposed to be a ton of value in the 2d, btw)?
This is astounding.
I have to assume this is some kind of joke.

To answer your question, our #1 and one #2 would do it, and the other team would be stifling laughter the entire time.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

No its just a question. Yep and our LT position is locked up solid w/ absolutely no questions about it.

No way, trade down with Cincy or others, we need more picks unless Ansah or Jordan are there and the real deal

Winston or Levitre should be added

I honestly wouldn't trade up in this weak draft. While Luke Joeckel may be the best tackle in the draft, I dont want him at anything higher than 12.

I would really like to see us trade down to like the 20's and pick up another 2nd or 3rd at least, and try to get Keenan Allen or Patterson if they fall that far, otherwise maybe Xavier Rhodes at DB.

I think that Johnathan Martin will be a solid starter at the left this year with a full year of practice at the position. And try to pick up Eric Winston to cover the right.

I am coming around to trading down, as advocated by Truth and others. It really doesn't seem like there is much difference between 20 and 12 in this draft, especially if we are focused on offense.
Our biggest needs are WR, TE, pass rusher, and CB. There is no WR or TE worth taking at 12, but there are a few later in the draft; there is only 1 CB worth taking at 12 and he will be long gone; that leaves pass rusher, and there may be someone worth taking at 12 better than who we can get later, but I don't see any real superstar there. Also OT, which I would hate to have to take in thw 1st, but there is a chance one of the top 3 would be there at 12. All things being equal though, unless someone like Joekle or Fisher, drops to 12, or maybe Ansa (who scares me since he's got bust potential), I am good with dropping down to 20 or so if we can get a 2d (I'd give up our 4th in the process).

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

I think mizzou15 is actually Rick Spielman.

I don't see pass rusher as a big need position at all. We were 5th in the league in sacks last year (42) and I think Vernon will be a 10 sack guy this year.

I would only trade up for two players this year. Sharrif Floyd and Dee Milliner.

NO trading up for more supporting cast type players (O-line) and non productive boom or bust workout warriors like Ansah or Jordan. I may take a chance on one at 12 but not willing to give up picks for one.

I think Floyd could be a Warren Sapp/ Geno Atkins type player.

If I trade down it's for a WR, Eifert or maybe even Tank Carradine.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think mizzou15 is actually Rick Spielman.

Speaking of Spielman....Word is he is our main competition for Mike Wallace.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Speilman was an idiot but is Ireland much better?

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

No actuall I am for trading down. I am also for getting some solid solutions in F/A and the draft. The trade up scenario is based on getting a solid RT (Winston), signing Wallace and Hartline, and Dwight Freeney in free agency. I am assuming we would have 2 3's and 2 4s.

1. LT
3. CB
3B WR
4 CB
4B DL assuming we get an extra
5 BA
7 BA
7B BA

We still would gave trade bait in Martin Odrick & Thomas

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speilman was an idiot but is Ireland much better?

Oh hell yes!!!!

These are our draft picks under Spielman....

2002:
1 Ricky Williams
2 (trade) AJ Feeley
3 Seth McKinney
4 (trade) Ricky Williams
4 Randy McMichael
5 Omare Lowe
5 Sam Simmons
7 Leonard Henry

2003:
1 (trade) Ricky Williams
2 (trade) Ricky Williams)
2 Eddy Moore
3 Wade Smith
3 Taylor Whitley
5 Donald Lee
5 JR Tolver

2004:

1 Vernon Carrey (gave up a 4th round pick to move up ONE SPOT and take Vernon Carey while passing on Vince Wilfork)
2 (traded to Pats for 2003 pick Wade Smith)
3 (traded to Packers for a 4th and 5th)(passed on Matt Shaub taken 3 picks later)
4 Will Poole (from packers)
5 Tony Bua (from packers)


Do you really want to continue this discussion?

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

no I yield, Speilman was the worst

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Speilman was an idiot but is Ireland much
> better?
>
> Oh hell yes!!!!
>
> These are our draft picks under Spielman....
>
> 2002:
> 1 Ricky Williams
> 2 (trade) AJ Feeley
> 3 Seth McKinney
> 4 (trade) Ricky Williams
> 4 Randy McMichael
> 5 Omare Lowe
> 5 Sam Simmons
> 7 Leonard Henry
>
> 2003:
> 1 (trade) Ricky Williams
> 2 (trade) Ricky Williams)
> 2 Eddy Moore
> 3 Wade Smith
> 3 Taylor Whitley
> 5 Donald Lee
> 5 JR Tolver
>
> 2004:
>
> 1 Vernon Carrey (gave up a 4th round pick to move
> up ONE SPOT and take Vernon Carey while passing on
> Vince Wilfork)
> 2 (traded to Pats for 2003 pick Wade Smith)
> 3 (traded to Packers for a 4th and 5th)(passed on
> Matt Shaub taken 3 picks later)
> 4 Will Poole (from packers)
> 5 Tony Bua (from packers)
>
>
> Do you really want to continue this discussion?


don't forget trading wally ogunlye for marty booker and a 3d, and then trading that 3d for lamar gordon

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We still would gave trade bait in Martin Odrick &
> Thomas
>
>
> Martin as trade bait? huh? Our left tackle?


Yeah we are replacing him w/ a first rnd pick.

Take your head out this is speculation

mizzou, it would be such a bad trade for us, and wouldn't really resolve and pressing problem we have (dumping Martin for a rookie after just 1 year, and giving up TWO #2 draft picks and using our 1st rounder on OL in the process), I don't know why you are even wasting your time thinking about it.

Is this a trade you actually would want us to make??

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Yeah you might want to take your head out. Is that why you titled the thread "how far up"?

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2013 09:52AM by eesti.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mizzou, it would be such a bad trade for us, and
> wouldn't really resolve and pressing problem we
> have (dumping Martin for a rookie after just 1
> year, and giving up TWO #2 draft picks and using
> our 1st rounder on OL in the process), I don't
> know why you are even wasting your time thinking
> about it.
>
> Is this a trade you actually would want us to
> make??

Yeah it would be a bad trade, things change daily. Today I was thinking what if we got Winston at RT as well as some other f/a signings occured.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see pass rusher as a big need position at
> all.


You need to start thinking of pass rushers as we think of WR's.

Look at GB. Two years ago they had Jennings, Driver, James and Nelson at WR and Finley at TE yet they invested a 2nd roun pick in Randall cobb.

Two years later, Jennings gets hurt and Cobb becomes a star.

Our ENTIRE pass rush is one guy. Yes we were near the top in sacks but the sacks the other guys compile are sue to the extra attention Wake draws on every play.

Take him out of the equation and our pass rush evaporates because there isn't another guy on the roster who would concern an offense enough draw a double team let alone a triple team.

Having a pass rush makes your defense better and hides its warts. If our pass rush (Wake) goes away, our defense will get destroyed.

In today's NFL you cannot have too many good WR's and pass rushers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2013 04:05PM by THE Truth.

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No its just a question. Yep and our LT position is
> locked up solid w/ absolutely no questions about
> it.

**************************************************

Long may be in for a rude awakening, but I believe he is gone.

As soon as I saw that Justice was cut, I was thinking that is the guy Miami needs to go after.

Sign him and all Miami has left to fill on the OL is guard.

This is definitely not the year to attempt to trade up. According to Ireland, having all these draft picks and cap space was all planned. I highly doubt he would want to lose what he worked so hard to gain.

IMO, the only way Ireland should make a trade like you suggested, is if that "can't miss QB" is there.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mizzou15 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No its just a question. Yep and our LT position
> is
> > locked up solid w/ absolutely no questions
> about
> > it.
>
> **************************************************
>
>
> Long may be in for a rude awakening, but I believe
> he is gone.
>
> As soon as I saw that Justice was cut, I was
> thinking that is the guy Miami needs to go after.
>
> Sign him and all Miami has left to fill on the OL
> is guard.
>
> This is definitely not the year to attempt to
> trade up. According to Ireland, having all these
> draft picks and cap space was all planned. I
> highly doubt he would want to lose what he worked
> so hard to gain.
>
> IMO, the only way Ireland should make a trade like
> you suggested, is if that "can't miss QB" is
> there.


*********************************

Oops, I meant Eric Winston.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eesti Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't see pass rusher as a big need position
> at
> > all.
>
>
> You need to start thinking of pass rushers as we
> think of WR's.
>
> Look at GB. Two years ago they had Jennings,
> Driver, James and Nelson at WR and Finley at TE
> yet they invested a 2nd roun pick in Randall
> cobb.
>
> Two years later, Jennings gets hurt and Cobb
> becomes a star.
>
> Our ENTIRE pass rush is one guy. Yes we were
> near the top in sacks but the sacks the other guys
> compile are sue tot he extra attention Wake draws
> on every play.
>
> Take him out of the equation and our pass rush
> evaporates because there isn't another guy on the
> roster who would concern an offense enough draw a
> double team let alone a triple team.
>
> Having a pass rush makes your defense better and
> hides its warts. If our pass rush (Wake) goes
> away, our defense will get destroyed.
>
> In today's NFL you cannot have too many good WR's
> and pass rushers.

I understand the theory and agree but I just think we have to fix what's broke first. Like you said before, it's not a one year process. We can still take one in the mid to late rounds but we have to many positions of true need to get too carried away with drafting a pass rusher high or signing a big FA.

WR-3, TE-2, OG, OT, FS CB-2...that's a lot to worry about right there.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2013 03:31AM by eesti.

But you know we also seem to suck at run defense.

I just looked at the NFL.com stats and found to my surprise that we are

SIXTH in pass defense

but

20TH in rush defense.


We can get Kawaan Short, a 300 pounder from Purdue who can dunk a basketball

in the second round.

He's a run stuffer and get this......

He's a helluva pass rusher as well.

As holic says,

"best player at a position of need from West Lafayette."

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But you know we also seem to suck at run defense.
>
> I just looked at the NFL.com stats and found to my
> surprise that we are
>
> SIXTH in pass defense
>
> but
>
> 20TH in rush defense.
>
>
> We can get Kawaan Short, a 300 pounder from Purdue
> who can dunk a basketball
>
> in the second round.
>
> He's a run stuffer and get this......
>
> He's a helluva pass rusher as well.
>
> As holic says,
>
> "best player at a position of need from West
> Lafayette."


Chyren...I think you may have misread the ranking (unless I did).

We did take a step back at the end of the season but there were also injury issues.

It depends on what stats you look at but we were ranked 13th in yards per game allowed. We dropped drastically in that ranking because of the late year collapse. We had been in the top 5 all season before the injuries. We were 1st by a large margin for several weeks and had no tgiven up a 100 yard rusher in 22 games or 1 1/2 years.

We were ranked 7th in average yards per attempt. At mid season we were 2nd with 3.3 yards per attempt.

The most important stat "points per game", we were ranked 7th at the end of the season.

Our defense relies on a strict rotation to keep guys fresh. Tony McDaniel struggled BIG TIME last year with injuries all season long. Then Starks and Solia got knicked up and we were screwed.

In the terrible display vs NE, Starks was injured early in the game and replaced by McD. They proceeded to run the same play over and over right up the middle. McD was crying like a baby after the game saying "It really pissed me off," "It was disrespectful to us to run the same play over and over and be successful"

Really? What an idiot. Of course they did and we would too. I would fire him just based on this alone. It is his job to stop them and he didn't.

I know you love the Purdue kid but I think we have too many offensive needs to spend a 2nd round pick on a DT. The only way I would take a DT is if we could get Sharrif Floyd in the first since there aren't many offensive weapons ranked close to him. There is mor evlaue there and I there will be a ton of WR's going in the 2nd round.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But you know we also seem to suck at run
> defense.
> >
> > I just looked at the NFL.com stats and found to
> my
> > surprise that we are
> >
> > SIXTH in pass defense
> >
> > but
> >
> > 20TH in rush defense.
> >
> >
> > We can get Kawaan Short, a 300 pounder from
> Purdue
> > who can dunk a basketball
> >
> > in the second round.
> >
> > He's a run stuffer and get this......
> >
> > He's a helluva pass rusher as well.
> >
> > As holic says,
> >
> > "best player at a position of need from West
> > Lafayette."
>
>
> Chyren...I think you may have misread the ranking
> (unless I did).
>
> We did take a step back at the end of the season
> but there were also injury issues.
>
> It depends on what stats you look at but we were
> ranked 13th in yards per game allowed. We dropped
> drastically in that ranking because of the late
> year collapse. We had been in the top 5 all season
> before the injuries. We were 1st by a large margin
> for several weeks and had no tgiven up a 100 yard
> rusher in 22 games or 1 1/2 years.
>
> We were ranked 7th in average yards per attempt.
> At mid season we were 2nd with 3.3 yards per
> attempt.
>
> The most important stat "points per game", we were
> ranked 7th at the end of the season.
>
> Our defense relies on a strict rotation to keep
> guys fresh. Tony McDaniel struggled BIG TIME last
> year with injuries all season long. Then Starks
> and Solia got knicked up and we were screwed.
>
> In the terrible display vs NE, Starks was injured
> early in the game and replaced by McD. They
> proceeded to run the same play over and over right
> up the middle. McD was crying like a baby after
> the game saying "It really pissed me off," "It
> was disrespectful to us to run the same play over
> and over and be successful"
>
> Really? What an idiot. Of course they did and we
> would too. I would fire him just based on this
> alone. It is his job to stop them and he didn't.
>
> I know you love the Purdue kid but I think we have
> too many offensive needs to spend a 2nd round pick
> on a DT. The only way I would take a DT is if we
> could get Sharrif Floyd in the first since there
> aren't many offensive weapons ranked close to him.
> There is mor evlaue there and I there will be a
> ton of WR's going in the 2nd round.


Who would have imagined bob pushing for Purdue or Cal players...

In this case though I'd agree with him to a degree. I have no issues taking a DT like Kawaan Short in the 2nd round or even late first after a trade down. He's an excellent football player. And we'll need him next year when Soliai AND Starks hit free agency.

This is why we need to address and many of our needs as possible in free agency especially without overpaying for most of them.

That would allow us to go BPA with all our picks without having any pressing needs influencing the choice.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> don't forget trading wally ogunlye for marty
> booker and a 3d, and then trading that 3d for
> lamar gordon
>
> Is it a coincidence that Spielman traded away a
> 4th round pick to Minnesota to move up one spot in
> the first round...and then went to work for
> Minnesota a year later? hmmmm.
>
> Minnesota ended up taking a DE.
>
> He also gave a 5th and 6th for Joey Harrington.


I attest he was already working for Minnesota when he made those trades

We have 33 mil left in cap space. 3 mil for the rookies so 25-30 mil left to spend. Probably closer to 22 since we need some space for next year.

I heard Short has skinny legs and carries most of his weight in his mid section. He may get away with that in college but not so much in the pros.

I think we need to spend on a tried and true RT. Going into next season with a 2nd year LT (with questions) and a 2nd round or later RT is probably not a safe bet. Too much at stake, I doubt any of the top 3 tackle swill be available at pick 12. Fisher, Joeckel and Johnson should be gone.

Then we need to resign Clemons and pick up a WR in FA. That will kill about 10-12 mil in cap space leaving us with about 18 mil. I doubt we spend much on a CB.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers