Because I keep hearing that we need another pass rusher. Is he a bust so far or is the jury still out on him. I say he disappointed last year because he started strong then faded away. Do you guys feel them same?

Agree Jury still out. Played well early then disappeared

Lol, "a bust" you ever hear of "the rookie wall"? He'll be fine.

Compare the stats and Vernon is right up there w/ the DE's taken in the first and second rounds last year. He leads in solo tackles blocked kicks and ties for 2nd in forced fumbles w/ 2. His 2012 season was prestty good. I would have taken Bequette over him and that guy never got on the field in NE. I liked Curry better than him and his stats are non existent in Philly. I think Vernon will be fine. I would like to grab Dwight freeney because I think he would make a great combination w/ Wake and then have Vernon come in as a 3rd DE.

Good pass rushers never stop getting sacks or applying pressure. Vernon ran out of gas.

Finshady Wrote:
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> Good pass rushers never stop getting sacks or
> applying pressure. Vernon ran out of gas.


Cam wake had 5 sacks as a rookie and he'd played in Canada.

Jason Taylor had 5 sacks as a rookie.

Your premise is wrong.

Most pass rushers don't become great pass rushers as a rookie.

Some do, but most take a year or two to figure it out.

Something that is missed by a lot of fans is that Vernon played a lot more LB as the year went on.

PFF graded Vernon as the 34th ranked 4-3 DE, out of 62. Cam Wake was #1 and Jared Odrick was #59. Vernon's pass rush grade was weak, but he earned good grades in pass coverage and run stopping.

Vernon was used to rush the passer just 289 times. That is about half as many times as Odrick rushed the passer. If you doubled Vernon's stats, his numbers for QB disruptions (sacks, hits, hurries) would have been ever so slightly better than Odrick's. Odrick had 6 sacks, 10 hits, and 21 hurries. In half the snaps, Vernon had 3 sacks, 7 hits, and 11 hurries.

Vernon dropped into coverage 54 times, more than any other Miami DE.

When you look at the rookie DE across the league, only 5 had more sacks than Vernon (Irvin, Jones, Wolfe, Coples, and Reyes).

Vernon rushed the passer 289 times, and had 21 QB disruptions. That's one every 13.8 snaps.
Jones rushed 474 times, and had 43 disruptions, one every 11.0 snaps.
Coples rushed 312 times, and had 29 disruptions, one every 10.8 snaps.
Irvin rushed 393 times, and had 47 disruptions, one every 8.4 snaps.
Reyes rushed 347 times, and had 33 disruptions, one every 10.5 snaps.
Wolfe rushed 563 times, and had 26 disruptions, one every 21.6 snaps.

When you consider Vernon's draft status, and his lack of college experience, he did just fine as a rookie. When we drafted him, it was as a project. This is a guy who had 8 sacks in his college career. What was anyone else expecting from him?

This speaks to a larger point, especially when people want to take Ziggy Ansah in the draft. If you want an immediate impact pass rusher, you get a veteran in free agency. If you take one in the draft, expect to wait 2-3 years. Ansah had 4.5 sacks in his college career. He's not going to come into the NFL and start getting 10 sacks right off the bat.

Why do we need an "immediate" anything? Lookit. The past years since Shula were basically wasted. I think with Tannehill we are coming back. But it won't be SuperBowl, next year. Constantly hoping to fill our holes in free agency will just continue the Rime that we have been hearing since the Shula days. Draft as many top rookies as you can and in three years or so, you just might have that top flight team. If a free agent guy is so great as to cure your ills, his team would not have let him go. Now granted there are some top flight guys (but not many since the idea of Franchising came in) that there is a bidding war over but for the most part, free agents that are let go are garbage in one way or another, think Brandon Marshall and his head case denunciation of other players on our team.

Geez chyren, way to many holes to not address some in FA. You're like a broken record sometimes.

Well, didn't I say in about three posts we should address the defensive back problem in free agency?

There, you don't want a rookie to necessarily learn on the job at the cost of surrendering touchdowns to the other team but wide receiver or defensive line or running back? Those are star positions and you use the draft to try to get the "great ones."

cause if they're out there on the free agent market, there's something wrong with them.

ChyrenB Wrote:
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> Well, didn't I say in about three posts we should
> address the defensive back problem in free
> agency?
>
> There, you don't want a rookie to necessarily
> learn on the job at the cost of surrendering
> touchdowns to the other team but wide receiver or
> defensive line or running back? Those are star
> positions and you use the draft to try to get the
> "great ones."
>
> cause if they're out there on the free agent
> market, there's something wrong with them.


Defensive backs are very well paid in free agency. Even guys like Richard Marshall and Dmitri Patterson get deals worth $5M per year. And it is much easier to get a defensive back in the draft who is reay to play than it is a pass rusher. Why do we need an immediate impact pass rusher? Because we have no other pass rusher other than Wake. If anything were to happen to Wake, our defense goes from above average to bad.

Corners are as much a skill position as WR, RB, or DL. They are also "star" positions. The same argument you make for those other positions applies to corners, too. Corners don't hit the free agent market without flaws, either.

sometimes the only thing wrong with them is their former teams cannot manage the salary cap and can't afford them.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Defensive backs are very well paid in free agency.
> Even guys like Richard Marshall and Dmitri
> Patterson get deals worth $5M per year.

It shouldn't be about money for us. Didn't someone say we have a great deal of free agency money this year, not only on our own but in comparison?


And it is
> much easier to get a defensive back in the draft
> who is ready to play than it is a pass rusher.

RESPONSE: I disagree. You're saying that a rookie coming into the NFL from college is less likely to be tricked by sophisticated play calling and/or crafty old receivers than a rookie with brute strength is likely to overpower an old veteran offensive lineman in a pass rush? I don't buy it.

Why
> do we need an immediate impact pass rusher?
> Because we have no other pass rusher other than
> Wake.

RESPONSE: Yeah, but at least we got one. At WR, we have no breakaway threat. We have Hartline, basically a number 2 receiver who is barely away from being a true position tight end and Bess, who is a slot receiver who has basically caught less passes than Hartline, our supposed breakaway threat.


If anything were to happen to Wake, our
> defense goes from above average to bad.

RESPONSE: The fact that we have one good guy at one position does not mean that we should continue to have NO GOOD PEOPLE AT ANOTHER POSITION rather than to, at least for the time being, settle for one good person at both.

You want us to have two good people at one position and nobody at another position.

Moreover, all you are doing is again beefing up the Defense, the best part of our team and allowing the offense to languish.


> Corners are as much a skill position as WR, RB, or
> DL. They are also "star" positions. The same
> argument you make for those other positions
> applies to corners, too. Corners don't hit the
> free agent market without flaws, either.

RESPONSE: True but you have to make your choices. Look at Revis. Probably heralded as being one of the best in the league. I'm not getting the feeling that the league is salivating at the prospect of him hitting the open market. And no one is saying that the Jets are a "lock" to "NOT let him walk."

I'd rather see us signing Reevis than Wallace,etc.

mark, what would your plan for the offseason be?

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

ChyrenB Wrote:

> And it is
> > much easier to get a defensive back in the
> draft
> > who is ready to play than it is a pass rusher.
>
> RESPONSE: I disagree. You're saying that a rookie
> coming into the NFL from college is less likely to
> be tricked by sophisticated play calling and/or
> crafty old receivers than a rookie with brute
> strength is likely to overpower an old veteran
> offensive lineman in a pass rush? I don't buy
> it.

You should look at the history of the league. Look at how many rookie pass rushers get more than 6 sacks in their first season. The success rate of first year corners is much greater than first year pass rushers. Offensive linemen are crafty, too. And they are much stronger than college offensive linemen. Pass rushers are like WRs. They need 3 years to develop at the NFL level. That's because they get by on athleticism in college, but they need to learn technique in the NFL.

Finshady Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good pass rushers never stop getting sacks or
> applying pressure. Vernon ran out of gas.


Dude sometimes you really don't know what the hell you are talking about. Vernon's season was on par for any rookie DE drafted in last years draft. He surpassed some players drafted higher than him.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mark, what would your plan for the offseason be?


Re-sign Hartline, Starks, Clemons, and Fasano. Sign Greg Jennings. Sign a pass rusher. I don't care if it's an old guy like John Abraham. It needs to be someone who can generate a decent pass rush opposite Wake, and give time to see if Vernon develops. I like guys like Michael Bennett and Anthony Spencer (who Ireland drafted), but they've both played mostly on the strong side, same as Wake.

If they can re-sign Starks, I look at trading Odrick to a 3-4 team for a 2nd or 3rd rounder. He's not a great fit in the 4-3. If they can re-sign Hartline and land Jennings, then I look to trade Bess for a 3rd round pick.

Then, in the draft, I find an athletic LG who can pull, an OT, another WR or two, a seam threat TE, a corner or two, and LB depth.

There will be bargains in free agency after the first couple of weeks. It's going to be a huge buyers' market after the early frenzy. There are tons of decent o-linemen and corners they'll be able to choose from for depth. And I like a guy like Peyton Hills as a complement to Miller.

you're hired

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

No I know what I'm talking about because I watch and learned this game many years ago. Vernon did not finish well. He might of started ok, but then lagged off at the end. We need consistency, and players who are in shape enough to weather the season.

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > mark, what would your plan for the offseason
> be?
>
>
> Re-sign Hartline, Starks, Clemons, and Fasano.
> Sign Greg Jennings. Sign a pass rusher. I don't
> care if it's an old guy like John Abraham. It
> needs to be someone who can generate a decent pass
> rush opposite Wake, and give time to see if Vernon
> develops. I like guys like Michael Bennett and
> Anthony Spencer (who Ireland drafted), but they've
> both played mostly on the strong side, same as
> Wake.
>
> If they can re-sign Starks, I look at trading
> Odrick to a 3-4 team for a 2nd or 3rd rounder.
> He's not a great fit in the 4-3. If they can
> re-sign Hartline and land Jennings, then I look to
> trade Bess for a 3rd round pick.
>
> Then, in the draft, I find an athletic LG who can
> pull, an OT, another WR or two, a seam threat TE,
> a corner or two, and LB depth.
>
> There will be bargains in free agency after the
> first couple of weeks. It's going to be a huge
> buyers' market after the early frenzy. There are
> tons of decent o-linemen and corners they'll be
> able to choose from for depth. And I like a guy
> like Peyton Hills as a complement to Miller.


^^^^^

I think the pass rusher situation will depend on what we do with Randy Starks and how we handle his replacement.

If we do not resign Starks and Odrick moves inside then we will probably add a pass rusher. However, if we sign a FA, it should be someone who can play on running downs so that Vernon can continue his development as a pass rusher. He showed enough last year to warrant further investment. That being said, we still have Derrick Shelby but will need one more DE to complete the rotation. Most likely a lower round guy we can develop.

If we resign Starks (or another DT) then we have to decide what to do with Odrick. Do we use him as we did last year or does he move more into Tony McDaniels role as a rotational DT? Is he trade bait?

I think signing an older guy like Abraham or Sweeney is probably not something the staff would do IMO. At this stage in their careers they are situational pass rushers who would stunt the growth of Vernon and whoever else we have at DE (from previous Ireland statements). I also don't see a big FA signing or a high draft pick on DE.

Vernon should make a bigger step this year after another full season to train and get in NFL shape, learn more pass rush technique, etc. He does have Cam Wake to learn from.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Vernon will be fine. His decrease was the rookie wall.

With him, like most players, it will be his maturity and how he gets to work during the off season. Lets hope he is hanging out with Wake!

dolphin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vernon will be fine. His decrease was the rookie
> wall.
>
> With him, like most players, it will be his
> maturity and how he gets to work during the off
> season. Lets hope he is hanging out with Wake!

**************************************

Was it the rookie wall or he just didn't play enough?