Jeff Ireland took a lot of heat for asking Dez Bryant questions that needed to be asked. He needed to know if this kid was ghetto trash or a misunderstood talent who could rise above his humble beginnings. Well, its pretty clear that he's trash in the mold of Adam Jones and others whose personalities and experiences overcame their natural talent. Idealistic fools were offended that he asked if Bryant's mother (notice, not referred to as "Mom" -this is a biological relationship, not an emotional one) was a prostitute. It was well-known and accepted that his father was a pimp, and that his mother worked for him. Pimps are among the evil and violent dregs of society- so what do you think she did for him? Maybe she was his social secretary? Grow up.

Rick

I think Dez Bryant has the raw ability to be among the 2-3 most elie WR's in the game and I was disappointed we didn't grab him when we had the chance. That being said I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about his attitude and personality. If you've ever heard him speak he sounds like the most uneducated human being I've ever heard talk. Not that you need to be a rocket scientist to play WR, but he def comes across as a rather unsavory character. I'm not surprised to hear of his arrest and the nature of the allegations are even more concerning in terms of what it says about his character than say a DUI. I think we may have dodged a bullet on this one. Not to say that we hit a gold mine with Jared Odrick and Koa Misi

Dez Bryant is trash but he also had the right to knock Ireland's freaking teeth out for what he said. Even aholes love their mom's.

Dude had a f- up life and no excuse hitting your mom, u should burn for that one. But 2 aholes don't make a right. I would have given him a pass if he had clocked Ireland.

Only a jacka$$ would ask someone if their momma was a ho, even if their momma was a ho.

Ireland is nothing but a right jackass.

Too bad he didn't spend as much time investigating football players as he does investigating someone's ho mom.

You guys need to get off Ireland.
He's the best GM we've had since....as long as I can remember.
His only real blunder was bringing in Marc Columbo, who I'm sure Tony vouched for. He fixed that by dispatching both, in quick fashion I may add.
Other than that, he's done way more good than harm for this team.
Quit being haters. Or just quit showing how clueless you are when it comes to GM evaluations. Seriously!!

socalphin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys need to get off Ireland.
> He's the best GM we've had since....as long as I
> can remember.
> His only real blunder was bringing in Marc
> Columbo, who I'm sure Tony vouched for. He fixed
> that by dispatching both, in quick fashion I may
> add.
> Other than that, he's done way more good than harm
> for this team.
> Quit being haters. Or just quit showing how
> clueless you are when it comes to GM evaluations.
> Seriously!!

Yes, he's been a master of mediocrity.

None of his players are busts because (for cap reasons) the team must play with his picks.

But I can't think of one first rounder since Ireland was the real GM (post Parcells) that has made an on the field impact worthy of a first rounder.

Not one.


And when you talk about Free Agents - the only impact FA's so far has been Dansby. One slightly above average ILB does not make a good GM.

No, Ireland is a very mediocre GM who, thus far, has been great at covering his behind. He does seems to have a legion of apologists though.

I would say 1st rd has been his strong rd, everything else is a toss up. Nothing wrong with Jake Long, Vontae Davis, Jared Odrick and Mike Pouncey... Tannehill not so sure about yet.... Pat White, Philip Merling, Chad Henne, Sean Smith,Koa Misi none of which have lived up to being a second rd pick at all....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Was Long and Davis his picks or Parcells? I don't think he has anything to do with those picks (nor with other good Parcells moves like Pennington).

Odrick was a horrible pick. He had a leg injury when we selected him, and then sat out most of a season injured. His numbers hardly scream first round.

Pouncey is really no better than any other 2nd or 3rd round center. It not like the guy is Dwight Stevenson. He's hardly top tier which is what I'd expect from a first round pick center.

No, his picks have been safe and for need, but hardly hitting on talent. He is not building a winner.

So, not one-but several. He's done better since the New Jersey fat fraud slinked out of town. Pat White-Sheesh!

Rick

DolfanKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> socalphin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You guys need to get off Ireland.
> > He's the best GM we've had since....as long as
> I
> > can remember.
> > His only real blunder was bringing in Marc
> > Columbo, who I'm sure Tony vouched for. He
> fixed
> > that by dispatching both, in quick fashion I
> may
> > add.
> > Other than that, he's done way more good than
> harm
> > for this team.
> > Quit being haters. Or just quit showing how
> > clueless you are when it comes to GM
> evaluations.
> > Seriously!!
>
> Yes, he's been a master of mediocrity.
>
> None of his players are busts because (for cap
> reasons) the team must play with his picks.
>
> But I can't think of one first rounder since
> Ireland was the real GM (post Parcells) that has
> made an on the field impact worthy of a first
> rounder.
>
> Not one.


HAHA...

He's made TWO first round picks since Parcells rode out of Miami in September 2010

TWO.


Mike Pouncey is one of the better young interior O-lineman in the NFL.... and Tannehill hasn't even been here for a pre-season game yet.


At worst you can argue its too early to grade Ireland on what he's done, but if you are going to be fair he gets high marks for Pouncey and a big TBD for Tannehill.

But "mediocre"? Seriously? C'mon....that just comes across as an agenda to hate for hates sake.


>
>
> And when you talk about Free Agents - the only
> impact FA's so far has been Dansby. One slightly
> above average ILB does not make a good GM.



Actually Dansby signed in March of 2010...6 months before Tuna hit the bricks and turned over all GM duties to Ireland.


>
> No, Ireland is a very mediocre GM who, thus far,
> has been great at covering his behind. He does
> seems to have a legion of apologists though.


Ireland isn't anything at this point. He's a GM with no personality or social skills and a reputation as being a terrific judge of talent.

He's had two drafts and two FA classes of sans Tuna. Its WAAAY too early to call him anything but a work in progress.

DolfanKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was Long and Davis his picks or Parcells? I don't
> think he has anything to do with those picks (nor
> with other good Parcells moves like Pennington).


No. He served as a scout for everything under Parcells. Tuna made all the big picks and decisions. Parcells gets all the credit and blame until he left in the Fall of 2010.




>
> Odrick was a horrible pick. He had a leg injury
> when we selected him, and then sat out most of a
> season injured. His numbers hardly scream first
> round.


I think you are dead wrong about Odrick. But we'll find out this season.



>
> Pouncey is really no better than any other 2nd or
> 3rd round center.

You mean like 1980 2nd round pick Dwight Stephenson???


> It not like the guy is Dwight
> Stevenson. He's hardly top tier which is what I'd
> expect from a first round pick center.


Dude, Stephenson didn't start one game as a rookie and barely saw the field that season.

Pouncey is MILES ahead of where Dwight was at this point in his career.

Of course that doesn't mean Pouncey will get any better but lets be fair.


>
> No, his picks have been safe and for need, but
> hardly hitting on talent. He is not building a
> winner.

Like I said...two drafts and free agent classes who have a total of 1 season of games on the field and one preseason under Sporano's ultra conservative offense and one set of OTA's under Philbin under their belt.

Perhaps we should re-visit this diatribe after the season. Odrick, due to sitting out his ostensible rookie season with that injury, is coming off his true rookie season tied for third in number of sacks for rookie DE's with 6.0, and passing judgment on a rookie center at the end of that rookie season is silly. By the way, Dwight Stevenson played very little center his rookie season, so Pouncey has a leg up on him. It may be a case of-"open mouth, insert foot."

Rick

Ireland was a part of all the drafts, since he has been our GM IMO, for better or worse... At the very least he was the number 2 guy in personel, he had an impact on all the drafts...I am not going to play guessing games about who's pick was who's during the parcell era. While their might be a pick or 2, where Parcells might have gone rogue, the majority of the draft picks I believe were mutually agreed upon between Parcells and the GM..

As far as Odrick at pick 28 was far better pick then Merling at 32. I think Odrick is gonna continue to flourish. His first year really playing and not on the field every down, the guy had six sacks, a forced fumble and an interception he returned almost 40 yards or so.. I think Odrick will be one of the stars of the defense next year... On a defensive line with 3 probowlers, Starks, Solia, and Wake...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 03:27PM by Crowder52.

dolphan4545 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps we should re-visit this diatribe after the
> season. Odrick, due to sitting out his ostensible
> rookie season with that injury, is coming off his
> true rookie season tied for third in number of
> sacks for rookie DE's with 6.0


There is reality and then there is the reality you want to believe. In no way shape or form was last year his "Rookie" season. Oderick had a full preseason and a regular season game his prior year. That is a huge head start of any NFL rookie. And yet somehow he still ended behind a significant number of first round rookies from 2012.

Oderick is an average NFL DE. Only picked in the first round.


, and passing
> judgment on a rookie center at the end of that
> rookie season is silly.

You're acting as though I called the guy a bust. Pouncy ain't a bust, he's just no better than any other 2nd round Center.

BTW, Stephenson was drafted in the second round... sort of proves my point even if Pouncy becomes Stepehenson (which he won't).


I'm not saying that Ireland is picking bad players. He's not. But Ireland is bottom feeding to a degree. He seems like the kind of guy that walks into a bar full of 10s, but then leaves with an 8.5. Not that there isn't anything wrong with an 8.5, but why not pick the 10?

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DolfanKing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Was Long and Davis his picks or Parcells? I
> don't
> > think he has anything to do with those picks
> (nor
> > with other good Parcells moves like
> Pennington).
>
>
> No. He served as a scout for everything under
> Parcells. Tuna made all the big picks and
> decisions. Parcells gets all the credit and
> blame until he left in the Fall of 2010.
>
>


Exactly. There are things Ireland could be hung for if we want to give him credit for Vonte, but that isn't fair or realistic. We all knew Tuna called the shots, no matter what Irelands title.




>
>
> >
> > Odrick was a horrible pick. He had a leg
> injury
> > when we selected him, and then sat out most of
> a
> > season injured. His numbers hardly scream
> first
> > round.
>
>
> I think you are dead wrong about Odrick. But
> we'll find out this season.
>
>

"Dead wrong"? About what? I'm not predicting the future, I'm just looking at the last two years. We knew coming in that he had a leg injury. And then, he gets on the field.... another leg injury. That is all fact.

In his second season, he numbers were not exactly eye-popping.

If he breaks through in his third our fourth season, great - I'll be stoked.

But then he becomes a FA, and that makes us a farm team. Sorry - but thems the facts.

When you draft first rounders, they must deliver within two years, or we might as well have drafted a second rounder.



>
> >
> > Pouncey is really no better than any other 2nd
> or
> > 3rd round center.
>
> You mean like 1980 2nd round pick Dwight
> Stephenson???
>
>

Yup. That is exactly what I mean. Dwight Stepehnson was second round talent, and the people who drafted him knew how to evaluate him and properly value him.

Now to say Pouncy is the next Stepehenson is dreaming. He isn't. He's a good center, but no way no how is he as good as Dwight. So, we picked a center in round 1 that is not as good as a guy picked in round 2. That is bad value.

A GMs job, above all, is to properly value talent.




> > It not like the guy is Dwight
> > Stevenson. He's hardly top tier which is what
> I'd
> > expect from a first round pick center.
>
>
> Dude, Stephenson didn't start one game as a rookie
> and barely saw the field that season.
>
> Pouncey is MILES ahead of where Dwight was at this
> point in his career.
>
> Of course that doesn't mean Pouncey will get any
> better but lets be fair.
>
>

I'm not being unfair. This is not an indictment of Pouncey. I agree he is a good center. But is he first round quality? No. But then centers don't usually go round 1. Not even the greatest ones.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DolfanKing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Was Long and Davis his picks or Parcells? I
> don't
> > think he has anything to do with those picks
> (nor
> > with other good Parcells moves like
> Pennington).
>
>
> No. He served as a scout for everything under
> Parcells. Tuna made all the big picks and
> decisions. Parcells gets all the credit and
> blame until he left in the Fall of 2010.
>
>


Exactly. There are things Ireland could be hung for if we want to give him credit for Vonte, but that isn't fair or realistic. We all knew Tuna called the shots, no matter what Irelands title.




>
>
> >
> > Odrick was a horrible pick. He had a leg
> injury
> > when we selected him, and then sat out most of
> a
> > season injured. His numbers hardly scream
> first
> > round.
>
>
> I think you are dead wrong about Odrick. But
> we'll find out this season.
>
>

"Dead wrong"? About what? I'm not predicting the future, I'm just looking at the last two years. We knew coming in that he had a leg injury. And then, he gets on the field.... another leg injury. That is all fact.

In his second season, he numbers were not exactly eye-popping.

If he breaks through in his third our fourth season, great - I'll be stoked.

But then he becomes a FA, and that makes us a farm team. Sorry - but thems the facts.

When you draft first rounders, they must deliver within two years, or we might as well have drafted a second rounder.



>
> >
> > Pouncey is really no better than any other 2nd
> or
> > 3rd round center.
>
> You mean like 1980 2nd round pick Dwight
> Stephenson???
>
>

Yup. That is exactly what I mean. Dwight Stepehnson was second round talent, and the people who drafted him knew how to evaluate him and properly value him.

Now to say Pouncy is the next Stepehenson is dreaming. He isn't. He's a good center, but no way no how is he as good as Dwight. So, we picked a center in round 1 that is not as good as a guy picked in round 2. That is bad value.

A GMs job, above all, is to properly value talent.




> > It not like the guy is Dwight
> > Stevenson. He's hardly top tier which is what
> I'd
> > expect from a first round pick center.
>
>
> Dude, Stephenson didn't start one game as a rookie
> and barely saw the field that season.
>
> Pouncey is MILES ahead of where Dwight was at this
> point in his career.
>
> Of course that doesn't mean Pouncey will get any
> better but lets be fair.
>
>

I'm not being unfair. This is not an indictment of Pouncey. I agree he is a good center. But is he first round quality? No. But then centers don't usually go round 1. Not even the greatest ones.

Ireland stepped on it in the interview, I'm not sure what he expected as an answer, but there could have been other questions to ask if he wanted to know what the hoime environment looked like.

He however was right about Dez Bryant being a character risk.

Wonder if he was under pressure to pick Bryant and was trying to build a case for not selecting him. Even if so he did it poorly.

****
In whole, I agree that Ireland has done a pretty good job as GM. He inherited the dregs in terms of talent and despite not getting who the media dreamed of for coaches (but not really attainable) he looks like he brought in a winner with Philbin.

We'll see when and if the Ws come.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> If he'd played as a rookie I might buy that
> argument to a degree. But he didn't.

He played one regular season game as a rookie.

You're apologizing for Ireland. Its obvious where you are coming from. I think you are wrong.

DOlfanking, to me it is not so important what a player does in his first year as it is how good of a player he is by year three and four... DOnald Thomas had a great rookie year, never to be heard from again... Koa Misi had a pretty good rookie year and then fell off... TO me it is more important what type of player you wind up to be rather then how fast you come out of the gate. If you never survive the sophmore slump I got no use for you as first three rds draft pick..... Odrick is on his way up not down, that is what I think you are underestimating about him...
Same thing about Pouncey, I dont believe he will suffer from a Sophmore slump, and will get better rather then his weaknesses exlpoited to a downward slide of play. It isnt all about the rookie year with first rd picks IMO. It is that they have a long tenure with the team contributing at an elite or top level by year 3...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 12:35PM by Crowder52.

Phinjim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ireland stepped on it in the interview, I'm not
> sure what he expected as an answer, but there
> could have been other questions to ask if he
> wanted to know what the hoime environment looked
> like.
>
> He however was right about Dez Bryant being a
> character risk.
>
> Wonder if he was under pressure to pick Bryant and
> was trying to build a case for not selecting him.
> Even if so he did it poorly.
>

I agree with you, that sounds like a likely scenario, that Ireland was worried about him and trying to build a case against him, so he pushed him... On the other hand Ireland was not a genius, Bryant clearly had character questions that were legitimate or he would never have fallen all the way down to the Cowboys with his physical abilities... He did get booted out of playing college football by the NCAA...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DOlfanking, to me it is not so important what he
> does in his first year as it is how good of a
> player he is by year three and four... DOnald
> Thomas had a great rookie year, never to be heard
> from again... Koa Misi had a pretty good rookie
> year and then fell off... TO me it is more
> important what type of player you wind up to be
> rather then how fast you come out of the gate.


Thomas and Misi were not first round picks.

First round picks need to immediately contribute, and make an impact in their second year. They need to be at high value for that round i.e. positions that get picked first most often: QB, DE, DB, LT, WR.

Centers almost never go round one.

Good round one DE's make an impact by the end of their first season, not hope to do something meaningful in the third.

A QB picked in round one should at least compete for the starting position sometime during his rookie season, not a "project" that *may* compete in his second.

As far as FIRST ROUNDERS go, Ireland seems to pick the cream of the crop of second round prospects. That is safe and a good CYA technique (less high risk/busts chance I suppose) but I'm not sure it does much to make the team more than mediocre. And so far, Ireland's on field results have not been all that great. Two 6-10 seasons. You may say he inherited a mess, but I don't see those first rounders making any impact to change the mess.

I'm looking at this realistically... not at "potential". "Potential" is the excuse that losing teams make. Wining teams get players that make immediate and significant impact.

Just look at the facts: Ireland picked a center, a DE that hasn't produced much in 2 years, and a project QB. I'm not knocking these players. I'm sure they will all produce at some point in there career. But I am saying that in three years our GM has produced in the first round what a "good" GM could do with three picks in the second and/or third round.

What did Aaron Rodgers do in his first 3 years let alone his first year, and wouldnt you still consider him an unbelievable 1st rd draft pick by Green Bay... As I said, it more important where you wind up then how fast you come out of the gate... and Rodgers is a great example of that IMO.. I think Pouncey and Odrick will also be great examples of that as well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What did Aaron Rodgers do in his first 3 years let
> alone his first year,

Aaron Rodgers spent his first two years sitting behind Brett Farve. This is not to say he wouldn't compete during his first two years agains a different QB, but the GM of the Packers was smart enough to do what the JJ didn't - draft a QB in the first round while a legend was still in place.

Farve was Green Bay's Marino. No way any QB - even a number one overall - was going to start ahead of Farve in Green Bay. Farve eventually abdicated: He retired, then had second thoughts, jerked around the Packers FO, became a joke, and then signed with a rival.

In Aaron Rodgers third season (the first one he started), he brought his team to the playoffs. I'd say that is an impact.

So it is ok for a 1st rd er to go until year three before having an impact?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it is ok for a 1st rd er to go until year three
> before having an impact?

That is a silly question. Are you suggesting that the only way I keep integrity is if I say a rookie QB should unseat Brett Farve?

LOL!

Ask me that when we have Brett Farve (or some other legendary QB that can still perform) at QB.

lol, I hear your point and respect it, I am just making the point that as long as the 1st rd pick winds up elite, how he plays his first year is not all that matters in judging him as a good pick or bad.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lol, I hear your point and respect it, I am just
> making the point that as long as the 1st rd pick
> winds up elite, how he plays his first year is not
> all that matters in judging him as a good pick or
> bad.....

Had Saban picked Rodgers, then I think we would have seen Rodgers starting around mid-season. Rodgers would not have shown up with a project tag.

Rodgers was the second best QB in the draft. Many considered him top ten, and nearly everyone thought he would go in the top half of the first. For some strange reason he slipped. I guess back then people weren't picketing the GM to select a QB in the first round or be fired.