I have read that Karlos Dansby is set to make 8.8 million this year in base salary with a cap hit of between 11-12 million.. With Cameron Wake, and Jake Long needing to be resigned, how can the Dolphins justify such a large cap hit for Dansby. He hasnt been elite, he hasnt made one probowl as a Dolphin, he showed up overweight last year, and has had some injury issues, yet he is slated to take as large of cap number as anyone on our team this year... For what... While he is good, his contract in no way justifies his results IMO. He is slated to cost us about twenty times more in cap space then Cameron Wake this year. Houston we have a problem...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Why does teams like NE are able to keep such a great talented team?

How do they do it?

How are they able to pay everybody?

We cant even pay a couple of guys.

Maybe we need a better management , we need people that know what they are doing like NE has.

This is the last of his guaranteed money. It would actually cost more to release him than it would to keep him. But, after this year, he is as good as gone.

samsam3738 Wrote:
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> Why does teams like NE are able to keep such a
> great talented team?
>
> How do they do it?
>
> How are they able to pay everybody?
>
> We cant even pay a couple of guys.
>
> Maybe we need a better management , we need people
> that know what they are doing like NE has.

Actually we finally have a gm that knows what he's doing and does it the new England way.

The idea that new England keeps everyone is a fallacy. They keep THE RIGHT people and at the teams price, not the players. They let good players leave every year. That's why they get so many comp picks.

They trade guys that want too much like Richard Seymour, asante Samuel. Or the just let them go and take the comp picks.

If they can't agree the right contract for the team the franchise the guy as they did with wilfork, Welker and light.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samsam3738 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why does teams like NE are able to keep such a
> > great talented team?
> >
> > How do they do it?
> >
> > How are they able to pay everybody?
> >
> > We cant even pay a couple of guys.
> >
> > Maybe we need a better management , we need
> people
> > that know what they are doing like NE has.
>
> Actually we finally have a gm that knows what he's
> doing and does it the new England way.

I hope you are right...Because our old GM stunk.

We need scouts and a coaching personel like NE has as well.

It seems every move they make as far as >>>>>when they had injuries at the OL position whoever they put in there worked out for them...

Its obvious their play sheme is better than ours...Or i dont know what the secret is.

Whenever we had injuries we put a OL in there that played like crap.

They have players better prepared and it all comes down to coaching and preparing for a game.

The better the team you are the more willing players are to play for less $$$$$$$$$$.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

dolfanmark Wrote:
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> This is the last of his guaranteed money. It would
> actually cost more to release him than it would to
> keep him. But, after this year, he is as good as
> gone.

Unless he produces on the field, of course. I'm talking Pro-Bowl numbers. Dansby BETTER produce, or he'll have to take a massive paycut from another team next year.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
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> The better the team you are the more willing
> players are to play for less $$$$$$$$$$.


Yup thats another way to look at and it.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > samsam3738 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why does teams like NE are able to keep such
> a
> > > great talented team?
> > >
> > > How do they do it?
> > >
> > > How are they able to pay everybody?
> > >
> > > We cant even pay a couple of guys.
> > >
> > > Maybe we need a better management , we need
> > people
> > > that know what they are doing like NE has.
> >
> > Actually we finally have a gm that knows what
> he's
> > doing and does it the new England way.
>
> I hope you are right...Because our old GM stunk.
>

Here's what I like about Ireland so far:

1- everyone who talks about him gives him high marks as a talent evaluator.

2- he doesn't panic. He sticks to his gameplan. If he didn't we'd have Matt Flynn here or we'd have traded up for Tannehill.

3- he isn't married to the parcells blueprint. If he was we never would have taken Tannehill, he'd have taken cousins or Wilson in he 3rd.

4- he seems to learn from his mistakes. We over paid for dansby, grove and smiley. Now he's not throwing silly money at long or wake just to pacify the fans.

There's a lot of reason to be hopeful about Ireland for anyone willing to look at him objectively.


> We need scouts and a coaching personel like NE has
> as well.

Only time will tell if ireland is going to live up to his reputation.


>
> It seems every move they make as far as >>>>>when
> they had injuries at the OL position whoever they
> put in there worked out for them...

A lot of that is on Brady. Take him out of the equation and their holes and flaws are more exposed.


>
> Its obvious their play sheme is better than
> ours...Or i dont know what the secret is.

Belechick is smart. He's adapted to his talent and built it all around Brady.

Hopefully we get that type of stability from Tannehill.

I hope you are right...Good points.

Acquiring Dansby, and paying him that much money has been a huge mistake.. 11-12 million against the cap this year...WTF? These big money contracts havn't really worked out for us... Irelland big money FA signings have been pretty horrible... Marshall, Dansby, what we paid SOlia last year... WHile questionably the best player on our team, Wake has gotten the pooch.... That is bad GM'ing IMO. It doesnt make any sense... Pay guys alot who underperform for you, and pay guys minimum who shine and over perform and make them go into the last year of a bad contract....not cool at all... If I was Wake I would want out of Miami...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Acquiring Dansby, and paying him that much money
> has been a huge mistake.. 11-12 million against
> the cap this year...WTF? These big money
> contracts havn't really worked out for us...
> Irelland big money FA signings have been pretty
> horrible... Marshall, Dansby, what we paid SOlia
> last year... WHile questionably the best player on
> our team, Wake has gotten the pooch.... That is
> bad GM'ing IMO. It doesnt make any sense... Pay
> guys alot who underperform for you, and pay guys
> minimum who shine and over perform and make them
> go into the last year of a bad contract....not
> cool at all... If I was Wake I would want out of
> Miami...


It's easy to look back in hindsight and say they were horrible signings, but at the time, they filled huge needs and most of those guys were the best available at their positions, really nothing saying Wake couldn't wind up like that also, probably why Ireland isn't rushing into signing him. Also, it does seem like Ireland has learned his lesson on big money FA signings, not saying he wont ever do it again, but he seems way more cautious now.

Dolph- I just fnd it odd how Karlos Dansby gets a pass, from so many, with what he has done here and his huge financial number, Everybody is saying Jake Long cost to much, Dansby is costing us almost 12 million this year against the cap, Paul SOlia cost us 13 last year. And Jake Long, contract is the problem, Longs position on the field is not that important anymore.. People including the media pick and choose players to go after or get a pass on this team, very strange to me. It surely isnt based from on the field productions, cost of contracts/cap space or value of contribution.
Jake Grove, Gibril WIlson, Brandon Marhall, Karlos Dansby, SOlia last year, add ups those numbers for me... and tell me if a team can afford to throw away that type of money each year on players that dont workout or underperform. Then have problems paying the people who actually deserve it.. Horrible business fundamentals IMO. If you ran your business like that, you would have major problems, with employees commitment/resentment and company moral...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dolph- I just fnd it odd how Karlos Dansby gets a
> pass, from so many, with what he has done here and
> his huge financial number, Everybody is saying
> Jake Long cost to much, Dansby is costing us
> almost 12 million this year against the cap, Paul
> SOlia cost us 13 last year. And Jake Long,
> contract is the problem, Longs position on the
> field is not that important anymore.. People
> including the media pick and choose players to go
> after or get a pass on this team, very strange to
> me. It surely isnt based from on the field
> productions, cost of contracts/cap space or value
> of contribution.
> Jake Grove, Gibril WIlson, Brandon Marhall, Karlos
> Dansby, SOlia last year, add ups those numbers for
> me... and tell me if a team can afford to throw
> away that type of money each year on players that
> dont workout or underperform. Then have problems
> paying the people who actually deserve it..
> Horrible business fundamentals IMO. If you ran
> your business like that, you would have major
> problems, with employees commitment/resentment and
> company moral...


I agree with about 85% of this post, but those huge contracts were signed under a different CBA and with a different mindset from our FO. Also, signing Wake could turn out to be just as bad of a business decision, even Long is an inj risk now. And again, I want Long and Wake resigned long term, just not sure how to do it under the current CBA?

Dolph- How would the new CBA have affected the success of any of those high priced signings? The CBA didnt make those players successful or failings. The players themselves or their health did and made them bad FA signings... For example, if we didnt franchise Solia, that extra money from last year could have been added to the cap this year. Unused cap space can be rolled over into the next year, to give you higher cap room.

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 11:50AM by Crowder52.

Dolph- we pay back up lineman more in one year, then Wake has gotten for his 28 sacks since he started playing for us. We owe Wake, and we shouldnt be in that position. How can Wake walk into the locker room and see what SOlia and Dansby have gotten, and feel that life makes any sense or this team is fair and takes care of it players the right way.

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dolph- we pay back up lineman more in one year,
> then Wake has gotten for his 28 sacks since he
> started playing for us.


No wonder we are so F...UPED salary cap wise.

Crowder, this is life under the salary cap. Go around to every team in the league and they have overpaid/underpaid players on their team. The old CBA inflates the overpaid salaries because guys were getting record contracts based on the rules at that time. The new CBA features a much tighter cap which makes those contracts take up an even larger portion of the current cap.

As far as bad GMing, we had to pay Marshall and Dansby those amounts to get them on the team. They both were good players for us and had their moments in the sun. Ireland recognized they were overpaid for their production so he traded Marshall to give us cap relief. That was good GMing. He overpaid Soliai one year so we didn't let one of our best guys walk for nothing. This year he played hardball and got a good deal done with one of our best players. That is good GMing. Yes, Dansby still counts a lot against the cap and we are stuck with him because a) no one wants to trade for that massive contract b) we can't cut him because we actually lose money that way and c) we are woefully thin at LB and he is still a good or very good player most of the time.

As far as Wake, you are talking out both sides of your mouth. On one hand you complain about the bloated contracts on the team. On the other hand you complain about how Wake is underpaid and should receive a big contract. Wake is over 30, what if he declines before the end of the deal and is overpaid? Then I assume you will be complaining about how we have bloated contracts taking up all of our cap.

Also, we gave Wake a deal when he was a nobody. He honored the deal and outperformed it. He is in line for a raise. Just because he hasn't gotten one yet doesn't mean he won't get one. It's only May, they have all summer to hammer out a deal. These things take time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 12:35PM by dolphin1423.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dolph- we pay back up lineman more in one year,
> then Wake has gotten for his 28 sacks since he
> started playing for us. We owe Wake, and we
> shouldnt be in that position. How can Wake walk
> into the locker room and see what SOlia and Dansby
> have gotten, and feel that life makes any sense or
> this team is fair and takes care of it players the
> right way.


Haha, this is hilarious. In the NFL, contracts don't make sense. Have you not realized this? Life is not fair Crowder, as I'm sure Wake realizes, but apparently you do not. On every single team, guys are overpaid/underpaid. Good players eventually get paid by somebody.

I think folks get into an unreal slant on things when they just compare what people like dansby is making and what people like wake are making and don't get the inequities of it.

1. Bottom line - Wake is being paid below his demonstrated worth because it was the dolphins who took the risak to bring him in and pay him way more than he was making at his other job in the CFL.

- Wake will get his due, but the fins are managing other cap issues of folks they didn't get a bargain on.

2. Dansby was one of those wll respected buys that we had no talent close to when he came on board ... so he got a fat contract on his prior reputation ... now the Fins are arguably overpaying for him
- Fins are stuck in an unequitable position, with Dansby

So each of them Wake and the FINS have to honor thier contract or go elsewhere ... hopefully the plusses and minuses smoth out over all.

Wake will get his money, and eventually the market will balance out on Dansby either here or elsewhere.

dolphin1423 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder, this is life under the salary cap. Go
> around to every team in the league and they have
> overpaid/underpaid players on their team. The old
> CBA inflates the overpaid salaries because guys
> were getting record contracts based on the rules
> at that time. The new CBA features a much tighter
> cap which makes those contracts take up an even
> larger portion of the current cap.
>
> As far as bad GMing, we had to pay Marshall and
> Dansby those amounts to get them on the team.
> They both were good players for us and had their
> moments in the sun. Ireland recognized they were
> overpaid for their production so he traded
> Marshall to give us cap relief. That was good
> GMing. He overpaid Soliai one year so we didn't
> let one of our best guys walk for nothing. This
> year he played hardball and got a good deal done
> with one of our best players. That is good GMing.
> Yes, Dansby still counts a lot against the cap
> and we are stuck with him because a) no one wants
> to trade for that massive contract b) we can't cut
> him because we actually lose money that way and c)
> we are woefully thin at LB and he is still a good
> or very good player most of the time.
>
> As far as Wake, you are talking out both sides of
> your mouth. On one hand you complain about the
> bloated contracts on the team. On the other hand
> you complain about how Wake is underpaid and
> should receive a big contract. Wake is over 30,
> what if he declines before the end of the deal and
> is overpaid? Then I assume you will be
> complaining about how we have bloated contracts
> taking up all of our cap.
>
> Also, we gave Wake a deal when he was a nobody.
> He honored the deal and outperformed it. He is in
> line for a raise. Just because he hasn't gotten
> one yet doesn't mean he won't get one. It's only
> May, they have all summer to hammer out a deal.
> These things take time.


He won't listen 1423.

He doesn't care that the old CBA limited us to offering Soliai a max 30% raise so we had to franchise him or let him walk. He doesn't care that that move has ZERO IMPACT on our inability to sign wake today.

Facts like that wouldn't fit his distorted narrative about Ireland so he ignores them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2012 08:15AM by THE Truth.

Dolphin 1423- I think it is good practice to pay players based on their performance, not on their hype. In draft situations you have no control, but you do have control, over players on your team who outplay their contracts. It is good practice to tell players right now this is what your worth is, as soon as you show me that you outperfromed your contract, we will make it right. Prove to me you are worth more, and I will be the first guy to fight for you getting a new contract that reflects your contribution. If you dont operate this way, you wind up like us... Bad practice in any business.. As I said, if I was Wake, I wouldnt want to stay with this team based on how they treated him, once Wake outperformed his contract. I like bonus's based on performance, so you kind of gurantee a player gets paid if he outperforms his contract. Low base with lots of incentives, is the way to go in my book. I understand the complications of the NFL salaries and contracts, but i also think there is a right way and a wrong way to handle it...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Spin Doctor, I just dont listen to you very often...lol... i dont see the consistent value in it...sorry... You love to argue with me no matter the topic... You have your opinions I have mine...I respect your right to your opinion but dont have the time to bicker over whether the sky is blue or purple arguments you have... You are smart but very misguided.. and to be fair I am sure you feel similar about my opinions.. lol

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2012 01:28PM by Crowder52.

But Crowder, what about the players that underperform? Are they going to be the first ones to go to your GM door and say "I didn't perform up to my contract so I'll take a pay cut". Hell no. And once players have established themselves and good/great veterans, they will not take performances incentives as their main salary. They will want guaranteed money. Plus, when you base everything off incentives then you take away from the team game. So, one guys needs 10 sacks to hit an incentive, thus he is always going for the sack and may neglect his run responsibilities. Or, one WR needs 8 TDs to hit an incentive, thus he gets upset with your rookie QB for not targeting him enough in the redzone. Which damages their relationship, forces the rookie QB to force throws/make bad decisions, which in turn hurts his progression as a QB.

Your practice sounds great and fair but would never work. No team operates this way. Good teams pick and choose which players they should pay big money and take their time to hammer out a good deal for both sides. Your practice may take place occasionally if a team buys low on a guy and sets performance incentives but that usually only occurs with a bust or a guy with off the field issues that isn't in a position to ask for guaranteed money.

Dolphin1423- Have you ever heard of the Green Bay Packers... They only lost one regular season game this year, and won the superbowl the year before... How many FA, do you think they have signed over the same time period Ireland has been our GM... I dont think there is any question who has been more succesful during that time period.

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are smart but very misguided.. and to be fair I am
> sure you feel similar about my opinions.. lol

See there's the rub Mr. Moral Majority.

You think I'm smart and misguided.

I think you are 3 beers shy of a 6 pack. I think you hide behind that ignorance with pomposity, bombast and insults.

Frankly I'm tired of being the only one contributing to our discussions. I mean what's the point?

It's easier to just hit "ignore" and just chat with people who exist in this reality.