According to profootballfocus.com, Jeff Saturday was the 5th best C in the NFL in 2011. Mike Pouncey was 21st. Saturday graded out as the 5th best pass blocker and 7th best run blocker. Pouncey was the 31st rated pass blocker and 9th best run blocker. Only 3 centers allowed more QB sacks, pressures and hits than Pouncey did. If this team signs Peyton Manning, they are committed to a 2 or 3 year window of trying to win it all. And you can make a very good case that in that timeframe, Saturday would be a better Center than Pouncey, and Pouncey's athleticism would make him a good option at LG. If you did that, you could move Incogntio to the right guard. Signing Saturday could conceivably upgrade the line at 3 positions.

Reggie Wayne graded as the 19th best WR in the league in 2011, even without Peyton Manning throwing him the ball. Brandon Marshall graded out as the 50th best WR, with Hartline at 67th, and Davone Bess at 94th. Wayne and Manning have a very special on the field connection. They communicate with each other hand signals and looks, very similar to what Dan did with his favorite receivers over the years. He would upgrade our WR corps.

If they sign Manning, all bets are off as to what this team looks like. They will sell out to win a Super Bowl in the next 2 or 3 years. So, it may mean bringing in more veteran players. It's a gamble, but it could pay off. There was a story early in the offseason that someone close to Manning said that Marshall's "diva-ness" would be a deterrent for Miami landing Manning. If they are reasonably sure Manning is going to be healthy enough to play at a high level, and they sign him, I say bring 'em all in. Ship off Marshall to the Bears, and sign Saturday, Wayne, and Pierre Garcon. Whatever it takes to get Manning to a comfort level.

It was on obvious that Mike Pouncey was one of the top 5 Centers in the league...I don't care what some website says.

Matter of fact, I think Pouncey was the best lineman on the team, yes, that includes Jake Long.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

I don't know that Pouncey was top five last year. Mangold, Myers, Kalil, Mack, and Wells were all definitely better last year and you could make a case for a few others being better as well. But, I think next season Pouncey will be knocking on the door of the top five or in the top five. Pouncey is an elite talent and we should not consider moving him from center. An elite center is worth much more than an elite guard.

Manning will have to live with Marshall if he comes to Miami. That is part of the deal but I see no problem with picking up Wayne as long as it is a reasonable contract. Wayne would be a great fit as a number two in our offense, especially since we are moving to the WCO. I think Hartline and Bess will probably have more success in the new offense as well.

Garcon wouldn't be a bad signing for the right price. But the way it sounds is that he is looking for a pay day. Besides, I don't know if I trust him to be a consistent #2 receiver.

dolphan4545 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Selling out is exactly what they would have to do.
> Jeff Saturday is a 36-year-old on the downside of
> his career, Pouncey was an excellent rookie
> center with tremendous upside. Your belief that
> plugging Saturday into the current mix would
> upgrade the line at 3 positions is extremely
> questionable. Any comparison between a 33-year-old
> receiver and a much younger Pro Bowl MVP is
> foolish.
> So, you would wreck this team's chances for long
> term success for a quick thrill?
> From experience, this game is a lot more fun to
> watch when you know that it would take an
> aberration for your team NOT to make the playoffs.
> I want that feeling again, and if it takes a
> couple of years to get there, I'm game.

If they sign Manning, you don't have a couple of years to wait. It is win now or else.

So, I am foolish for comparing Wayne to Marshall because Marshall was the MVP of a flag football game where they don't allow press coverage or blitzing? Please, being a Pro Bowl MVP is meaningless.

It is foolish to compare a declining player to a legitimate number one WR. We should not trade Marshall unless we are getting at least two 2nd round picks. He is an elite talent and we can't trade cents on the dollar only two years after acquiring him. Marshall will flourish with Peyton and I don't see how an elite WR is a deterrent even with his questionable PAST behavior off the field.

That said, Wayne would be a great pick up if we get Peyton. And I agree that it is win now mode.

If we get Manning, I guarantee Marshall stops dropping TDs. And it won't be because Manning is practically catching them for him...it will be because Manning will put a fear in him a la Marino if he does drop them.

Not possible for anyone to put the fear of God in that a hole because he thinks that he IS God.

dolphin1423 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is foolish to compare a declining player to a
> legitimate number one WR. We should not trade
> Marshall unless we are getting at least two 2nd
> round picks. He is an elite talent and we can't
> trade cents on the dollar only two years after
> acquiring him. Marshall will flourish with Peyton
> and I don't see how an elite WR is a deterrent
> even with his questionable PAST behavior off the
> field.
>
> That said, Wayne would be a great pick up if we
> get Peyton. And I agree that it is win now mode.

What is that makes Marshall an elite WR? Is it his career 12 yards per catch average? Is it that he has been in the top 10 for dropped passes every year of his career? Is it that he has been first or second in the league in dropped passes in 3 of the last 4 years? Is it that he dropped more TD passes this season than he caught? Is it that he has never been a contributor on a winning team? Is it that he has never been part of an offense that has ranked higher than 16th in the league? Marshall has put up some huge numbers, and yet, the offenses with him have never done well. Never. The one year Denver ranked 16th is actually an outlier. Every other year, any offense with Marshall has ranked 20th or worse. He sure doesn't seem to have a huge impact on the bottom line.

And it's not his off field issues that would bother Manning. It would be the on field issues. You know, like constantly whining about not getting the ball enough. Like how he was targeted on almost 30% of Miami's pass plays the last two years, yet he still complains about not getting the ball enough. Like how he commits penalties on purpose when he gets frustrated. Do you think Manning would stand for that? A guy who flings the ball out of bounds, in a game you are winning, taking a penalty to put them out of FG range, all because he's not happy with how many catches he has?

Do you remember the Armando Salguero column where he talked about how Marshall likes to freelance his routes? How a 17 yard out would be called, and Marshall would run it 15 yards or 18 yards? Marshall admits he is not the most precise route runner. That will drive Manning insane.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not possible for anyone to put the fear of God in
> that a hole because he thinks that he IS God.

Then the locker room will look like some epic battle between Greek Gods...because BOTH these guys think they are gods.

Show me where Marshall whined about getting the ball this year. Bring up that link then I will concede that point. Show me, this season, his dumb penalties. I think he has cleaned up his act this past season. All WR drop passes and WR's that are targeted more drop more passes. Welker is usually among the league leaders in drops as well.

WR's are only as prodcutive as those around them. He has played with average QB's (Cutler was good but not great) and average offenses. A WR doesn't carry your offense to a top ranking. A QB and sometimes a RB does that.

I will concede that his imprecise route running will not be a good thing with Manning. But that is something that can be improved upon. It's not like he is doomed to be a bad route runner. With practice and help from Peyton, I don't think it is too farfetched to think his route running will improve. His endzone drops are anther thing I will concede. But that is also something that can be improved upon. Just look at all the acrobatic catches in the endzone he make in the pro bowl. The pro bowl may be glorified flag football but he still made some great catches. It's not like he can't catch.

You make some good points. I'm not saying Marshall is a top 5 WR. But he is a legitimate #1 WR in the NFL. He has some holes in his game and if he cleans those up, I think he will be a top 5 WR especially with Manning throwing him the ball.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He didn't complain about not getting the ball this
> year because he couldn't and that was because they
> threw him the ball whenever they could and the
> reason they did that was because he complained
> about not getting the ball all all last year.

He was targeted 30% of the time, pretty standard for a #1 WR. Besides, it's not like we had all these other great options to throw the ball to.
They threw him the ball this year because he is a very good WR and easily the best receiving option on the team.

> And what do we get for it? Six touchdown passes
> dropped in the endzone.

You got 81 catches for 1200 yards and 6 TD's. That's pretty good and better than anything in Miami for a long, long time.

> And, let's not forget him dissing Moore in the Pro
> Bowl.
>
> If he does that to Peyton Manning by saying
> "Peyton was a great QB in his day but it must be
> obvious that age has gotten to him and that's why
> my statistics are down"...................then at
> last will you fanatical defenders of Marshall
> FINALLY admit that you are wrong, wrong, wrong!

If Peyton plays great and Marshall disses him then that is a problem.

And for the last time, when your FO states publicly that the QB position must be upgraded then what is the problem with your star, pro bowl WR echoing that sentiment? It's not like he went out on a limb with those comments. It's not like anyone thinks Matt Moore is better than the QB's in the Pro Bowl.

dolphin1423 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Show me where Marshall whined about getting the
> ball this year. Bring up that link then I will
> concede that point. Show me, this season, his dumb
> penalties. I think he has cleaned up his act this
> past season. All WR drop passes and WR's that are
> targeted more drop more passes. Welker is usually
> among the league leaders in drops as well.

It sure was classy when Marshall threw Matt Moore under the bus at the Pro Bowl. Especially when Marshall single-handedly dropped Matt Moore's completion percentage by 4 points. And then he commented on how he had almost as many TDs in the Pro Bowl as he did all season. That's a bit galling when he dropped 7 during the season. Or about when he tweeted how he missed Jay Cutler throwing him the ball more? Or how he told the press he's already reached out to Matt Flynn and Peyton Manning? Matt Moore is a backup caliber QB, and I am not defending him. But, Marshall had a career best year in yards and yards per catch this year. In fact, it was a monumental increase over his norm in yards per catch. And instead, there he is, throwing his QB under the bus. Nice teammate.

Wes Welker has been at or near the top of dropped passes the last two years. But, he's not been in the top 15 before those 2 years. He is nowhere as consistent in dropping passes as Marshall. Reggie Wayne, who has lots of targets himself, has dropped 14 passes in the last 3 years combined. That's as many as Marshall dropped this year.

>
> WR's are only as prodcutive as those around them.
> He has played with average QB's (Cutler was good
> but not great) and average offenses. A WR doesn't
> carry your offense to a top ranking. A QB and
> sometimes a RB does that.

A great WR can elevate his entire team. A great WR requires double coverage, freeing up his fellow WRs for more favorable matchups. He forces the safeties to play back, opening up the running game.

>
> I will concede that his imprecise route running
> will not be a good thing with Manning. But that
> is something that can be improved upon. It's not
> like he is doomed to be a bad route runner. With
> practice and help from Peyton, I don't think it is
> too farfetched to think his route running will
> improve.

He's been in the league for 6 years. His route running is not going to improve dramatically. Route running is a difficult skill to master, and it is a huge reason why many WRs fail to make it in the NFL. Marshall gets away with it because of his size.

> His endzone drops are anther thing I
> will concede. But that is also something that can
> be improved upon. Just look at all the acrobatic
> catches in the endzone he make in the pro bowl.
> The pro bowl may be glorified flag football but he
> still made some great catches. It's not like he
> can't catch.

Again, he's been in the league for 6 years, and he has dropped a ton of passes in all of them. It's not suddenly going to get better.


>
> You make some good points. I'm not saying
> Marshall is a top 5 WR. But he is a legitimate #1
> WR in the NFL. He has some holes in his game and
> if he cleans those up, I think he will be a top 5
> WR especially with Manning throwing him the ball.

Do you think he will be happy with getting the ball a lot less? Because that's what will happen. Reggie Wayne is going to sign wherever Manning signs. Manning wants Wayne with him, and Wayne wants to be with Manning. And Manning also wants TE Jacob Tamme to come with him. And a guy like Manning, in a more west coast oriented offense, is going to spread the ball around. Wayne is better suited for the timing patterns of the west coast offense. Manning is going to lean heavily on him. Manning is going to love throwing the ball to Reggie Bush out of the backfield. Manning is going to get more than one TE involved (aside from Clay, who played mostly H-Back, we have 3 receptions by a TE not named Fasano over the last two years). More diversity equals a more dangerous offense. And Manning will spread the ball around. That means less catches for Marshall. And when he's on pace for a 60 catch season, he will be a disruptive presence, regardless of whether the team is winning or not.

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dolphin1423 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Show me where Marshall whined about getting the
>
> > ball this year. Bring up that link then I will
> > concede that point. Show me, this season, his
> dumb
> > penalties. I think he has cleaned up his act
> this
> > past season. All WR drop passes and WR's that
> are
> > targeted more drop more passes. Welker is
> usually
> > among the league leaders in drops as well.
>
> It sure was classy when Marshall threw Matt Moore
> under the bus at the Pro Bowl. Especially when
> Marshall single-handedly dropped Matt Moore's
> completion percentage by 4 points. And then he
> commented on how he had almost as many TDs in the
> Pro Bowl as he did all season. That's a bit
> galling when he dropped 7 during the season. Or
> about when he tweeted how he missed Jay Cutler
> throwing him the ball more? Or how he told the
> press he's already reached out to Matt Flynn and
> Peyton Manning? Matt Moore is a backup caliber QB,
> and I am not defending him. But, Marshall had a
> career best year in yards and yards per catch this
> year. In fact, it was a monumental increase over
> his norm in yards per catch. And instead, there he
> is, throwing his QB under the bus. Nice teammate.

He isn't the ultimate teammate but he did improve this year. He was honest about his personal problems. He was a team leader when we were losing and even got into it with Vontae when he came to practice hungover. His comments at the Pro Bowl may not have been classy but they weren't out of line. The FO already stated PUBLICLY that upgrading at QB is the number one priority this off season. And why wouldn't we want Marshall recruiting possible QB upgrades? Why wouldn't we want him trying to develop a relationship with them? I want our players (especially receivers) to be chomping at the bit to start working with a new QB. He didn't throw Matt Moore under the bus. Does anyone think Matt Moore was better than the Pro Bowl QBs? Is it such a crime to state that they are better? Everyone knows it anyways. I'm not saying he is an awesome team player and teammate. But such is life with a top receiver. Very few top receivers are also incredible teammates. But Marshall is getting better and he is becoming a leader.
>
> Wes Welker has been at or near the top of dropped
> passes the last two years. But, he's not been in
> the top 15 before those 2 years. He is nowhere as
> consistent in dropping passes as Marshall. Reggie
> Wayne, who has lots of targets himself, has
> dropped 14 passes in the last 3 years combined.
> That's as many as Marshall dropped this year.

Marshall doesn't have great hands and I never said he did. He does struggle with drops but his amount of targets increases his drop numbers and blows it up to look worse than it is.

> >
> > WR's are only as prodcutive as those around
> them.
> > He has played with average QB's (Cutler was
> good
> > but not great) and average offenses. A WR
> doesn't
> > carry your offense to a top ranking. A QB and
> > sometimes a RB does that.
>
> A great WR can elevate his entire team. A great WR
> requires double coverage, freeing up his fellow
> WRs for more favorable matchups. He forces the
> safeties to play back, opening up the running
> game.

Agreed, but a great WR doesn't carry his team. You don't have an average offense and add a great WR and suddenly skyrocket to the top of the league in offensive categories. Tell me where in the history of an NFL does a receiver carry a team by himself to a top offensive ranking. Nowhere. Rice played on great offenses in SF. Moss played on great offenses in MIN and NE. Megatron plays on a great offense in DET. All of these extremely productive seasons came when these WR were surrounded by lots of talent.

> > I will concede that his imprecise route running
> > will not be a good thing with Manning. But
> that
> > is something that can be improved upon. It's
> not
> > like he is doomed to be a bad route runner.
> With
> > practice and help from Peyton, I don't think it
> is
> > too farfetched to think his route running will
> > improve.
>
> He's been in the league for 6 years. His route
> running is not going to improve dramatically.
> Route running is a difficult skill to master, and
> it is a huge reason why many WRs fail to make it
> in the NFL. Marshall gets away with it because of
> his size.

He won't become one of the best route runners in the league, but it is foolish to think that he can't improve in that area. I doubt Marshall has made it a priority because, as you stated, he can get away with it. But if he makes it a priority, there is no reason that someone of his talent can't make strides in that area of his game with some good coaching of course. And I am guessing that Peyton will make it clear to Marshall that route running is a priority.

> > His endzone drops are anther thing I
> > will concede. But that is also something that
> can
> > be improved upon. Just look at all the
> acrobatic
> > catches in the endzone he make in the pro bowl.
>
> > The pro bowl may be glorified flag football but
> he
> > still made some great catches. It's not like
> he
> > can't catch.
>
> Again, he's been in the league for 6 years, and he
> has dropped a ton of passes in all of them. It's
> not suddenly going to get better.

His drops may not get better but I don't he will drop so many TD passes this year. That was an anomaly in his career and everyone has blown it up to bash him. I would expect the drop rate to continue but the drops in the endzone to diminish.

You seem to think players don't get better after they have been in the league for a while. They do, players are always getting better as long as they have good coaching. They don't make the huge leaps they make in their first few years but they fine tune and expand their game.

> >
> > You make some good points. I'm not saying
> > Marshall is a top 5 WR. But he is a legitimate
> #1
> > WR in the NFL. He has some holes in his game
> and
> > if he cleans those up, I think he will be a top
> 5
> > WR especially with Manning throwing him the
> ball.
>
> Do you think he will be happy with getting the
> ball a lot less? Because that's what will happen.
> Reggie Wayne is going to sign wherever Manning
> signs. Manning wants Wayne with him, and Wayne
> wants to be with Manning. And Manning also wants
> TE Jacob Tamme to come with him. And a guy like
> Manning, in a more west coast oriented offense, is
> going to spread the ball around. Wayne is better
> suited for the timing patterns of the west coast
> offense. Manning is going to lean heavily on him.
> Manning is going to love throwing the ball to
> Reggie Bush out of the backfield. Manning is going
> to get more than one TE involved (aside from Clay,
> who played mostly H-Back, we have 3 receptions by
> a TE not named Fasano over the last two years).
> More diversity equals a more dangerous offense.
> And Manning will spread the ball around. That
> means less catches for Marshall. And when he's on
> pace for a 60 catch season, he will be a
> disruptive presence, regardless of whether the
> team is winning or not.

They say winning cures all. I think if we are winning then he will be happy. Besides, I don't think you will see a drastic drop in production. Manning had Wayne and Harrison for a few seasons and they both put up huge numbers. Having more weapons will just open things up for him to get big plays, which is the best part of his game. Besides, with Manning we will throw the ball more which means more targets for everyone.

The coaches have stated that the offense won't exactly be WC. They will adjust to maximize the talents of the players on the roster.

I think you are underestimating Marshall. Sure he is still a bit immature, he isn't a top notch teammate, and he can be selfish at times. But he has grown up, he is becoming a leader, and he is not the same old Marshall of the past.

Tsstamper, I condede that we had other good options to throw to. However, like you said, Marshall is by far our most talented receiver and, IMO, our best option by a good distance.

Agree to disagree about the comments at the Pro Bowl. Also, to clarify my stance, I didn't like the comments. They weren't classy and he wasn't being a great teammate at the time. I just didn't feel outraged or disgusted like some on this board were.

I agree about having an optimistic outlook on Marshall going forward. Nice to talk to a fellow optimist around here, at least concerning Marshall. He is the first really good receiver we have had in a long time and some people are already clamoring to send him out for cents on the dollar.

Right on, man. I think we found our good common ground on him, and I'm certainly not in favor of unloading him for anything less than a premium (and really, I'm not anxious to unload him at all...I think that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater...not usually the smart thing to do).

I definitely appreciate that you actually didn't particularly like his comments. I think I might have read some sort of 'support of his comments' into what you wrote. I doubt there was irreparable damage done, so I'm probably in the "that wasn't classy or being a good teammate" camp rather than the "crucify him" camp.

I am definitely an optimist pretty much all around. I never could get myself to be optimistic about Colombo, but pretty much every other Phin starter I see with aqua & orange glasses. And I would absolutely love to see Marshall absolutely kill it next year. Cheers!

Help me understand "get rid of". What I see is a whole lot of positive and a whole lot more negative baggage than I would like to see. But what I have trouble seeing is who will take his place on the field and what we would get in return for him.

Would you be willing to cut him outright right now? I know that may seem extreme, but it's one possible course of action? Would you trade him right now to Chicago for their 2nd round pick, for example?

Trade, of course. You and I are never going agree on the proper punishment of being detrimental to the morale of the team. I say he must go and you say as long as he is performing reasonably, even though he has dropped more TD passes INSIDE THE ENDZONE than he has caught, you say keep him because, mainly, of his pedigree.

Hey, even though he is a tight end, Coby Fleener could replace Brandon Marshall as fast as the snap of your hand. Want to know why? Because he is as fast as a deer, can catch the ball in the midst of a somersault, can leap higher than Superman and is a blowout threat everytime he runs down the field. Why do you need an a hole like Marshall JUST BECAUSE one time he was considered a good player?

Does pedigree mean that much??????????????

How's Fleener's personality?

What would you need in trade for him? I don't think now's the right time to get rid of him unless someone wants to overpay. We almost certainly will have a new QB next year, and even Moore and Marshall (contrary to his stupid comments) had some mojo going the 2nd half of last season. I'd love to see if it could come together next season. I'm an optimist :-)

On a more pragmatic side, after next season its much more palatable to let him go from a cap perspective.

How's Fleener's personality?

What would you need in trade for him? I don't think now's the right time to get rid of him unless someone wants to overpay. We almost certainly will have a new QB next year, and even Moore and Marshall (contrary to his stupid comments) had some mojo going the 2nd half of last season. I'd love to see if it could come together next season. I'm an optimist :-)

On a more pragmatic side, after next season its much more palatable to let him go from a cap perspective.

Did chren just talked about god?

He who fears god and goes to church every day is afraid of the things hes done.

I saw on tv a pastor who was a drug addict and committed i dont know how many crimes....Now he is a pastor.

You think god is gonna forgive him because he is a pastor now.

BULL.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did chren just talked about god?
>
> He who fears god and goes to church every day is
> afraid of the things hes done.
>
> I saw on tv a pastor who was a drug addict and
> committed i dont know how many crimes....Now he is
> a pastor.
>
> You think god is gonna forgive him because he is a
> pastor now.
>
> BULL.

Samsam,

Now I'm no pastor, and I'm certainly no priest (I lack the required proclivity towards pre-pubescent boys), but I did see a commercial for a holiday inn express last night...

I believe that's how the system works. You sin. You admit responsibility for that sin...and you get a do-over. Even for former criminals who see the light and change their ways. No sin is so great it can't be forgiven. No soul is beyond redemption.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samsam3738 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Did chren just talked about god?
> >
> > He who fears god and goes to church every day
> is
> > afraid of the things hes done.
> >
> > I saw on tv a pastor who was a drug addict and
> > committed i dont know how many crimes....Now he
> is
> > a pastor.
> >
> > You think god is gonna forgive him because he is
> a
> > pastor now.
> >
> > BULL.
>
> Samsam,
>
> Now I'm no pastor, and I'm certainly no priest (I
> lack the required proclivity towards pre-pubescent
> boys), but I did see a commercial for a holiday
> inn express last night...
>
> I believe that's how the system works. You sin.
> You admit responsibility for that sin...and you
> get a do-over. Even for former criminals who see
> the light and change their ways. No sin is so
> great it can't be forgiven. No soul is beyond
> redemption.


First of all to the moderators....sorry i brought religion into this....

Second i apologize and say we all have our believes..

PS. Just do not go doing bad things like killing or raping or whatever then want to become a preacher so that god would relieve you of your sins because it will not work.

Now back to the phins.

GO PHINS.

I didnt even read chren i just saw you posted the word god......That was a discussion i had with my wife who want to drag me to church every once in a while.

Sorry i brought it up.