What type of defense you guys think we'll have next season? I would like to see Wake with his hands on the ground most of the time and sign or draft another pass rusher opposite side?

But I'm not sure about the LB's

I thought our defense was more effective in the 4-3 last year then the 3-4... We got after it in the 4-3, it was just to many big guys creating havoc on the line, and with their hands up on cue, blocking the passing lanes... When you have dline as deep as our was and is, you get as many of them on the field at once as you can IMO.. If you dont have alot of depth on dline and a strong NT, the 3-4 makes more sense.. You need less talent.. Running a 4-3 all the time you need alot of guys to rotate in and out consistently.. Our roster couldnt have ran an effective 4-3 when the tri first took over, not enough talent nor depth... Plus the TE's which are blowing up in the NFL this year, are covered easier in a 4-3 IMO.. We went into a nickel alot to deal with the TE problems that were exposed early in the season..

crowder who were the LBs when we were in the 4-3 last year?

I think there is a good chance we take that MLB out of BC in the first round this year. He seems like a bigger zach thomas type---makes a million tackles but maybe not the best measurables. that's if we don't trade up for a QB

I agree with a lot of your points Crowder. 3-4 you need lots of talented linebackers with one stud NT (soliai or wilfork) or DE (Justin Smith or Haloti Ngata). 4-3 you need lots of talented dlineman, which we have, with one stud LB. I'm fine with the switch and I think our needs stay pretty much the same. We already needed another pass rusher and linebacker depth.

I don't know that you need less talent so much as you need less players. You still need talent at DL in the 3-4 just not as many talented players.

Also, I think personnel is how teams effectively cover TE's. If you have linebackers or safeties that can cover then your ability to defend the TE will be good no matter the scheme.

Berk, I would rather go for a stud 4-3 DE than a MLB. Dansby could always play MLB if we can't find anyone else. Besides, look at the Giants. I'm not even sure who plays linebacker for them. They just have an absolutely dominant DL with a good but not great secondary.

It changed, but Dansby, Burnett, wake most of what I saw Dansby as the middle, and they rotated misi and taylor as well on the outside and sometimes had Burnett play MLB...It depended if we were blitzing or not and who needed a breather or injuries... 4-3 rotates guys in and out like hockey lines changing.

The more I think about the 4-3 the more I like it. We should keep Soliai and let Langford walk. Then we have Odrick, Starks, and Soliai at DT. Wake at one DE. Draft the other DE or sign Mario Williams (I wish). Dansby, Misi, Burnett, and another LB from the draft or FA. That would be a very solid front seven.

By the way we need to restructure Bell's contract down since he is scheduled to make over 6 mil this year.

Our off season priorities have shifted a little
1. QB
2. Retooling the front 7
3. OL

I think retooling the defense takes priority over the OL at this point.

I am hoping to come out of FA and the draft with a completely retooled front 7, potential long term QB, and at least a plan for the OL.

I think if we accomplish that then we might be able to contend for a wild card berth considering our cupcake schedule.

We didn't really use a 4-3. In passing situations, we would almost always have 4 guys on the line (JT, Wake, and some combo of Starks/Langford/Odrick). But, in those formations, we'd be in the nickel, with just Burnett and Dansby at LB with an extra DB on the field.

This whole 3-4 vs 4-3 thing is not as big a deal as everyone is making it. With Langford and Soliai as free agents, and JT retiring, we have holes to fill regardless of what scheme we use.

And the bottom line is this, we were in a nickel or dime package almost 2/3 of the time. So, we were only in a true 3-4 about 30-35% of the time. And with the talent we had, we'd rush the passer with 4 down linemen in the nickel/dime packages, so we used a lot of 4-man fronts, too.

I vote 3-4. Better against the run. Harder to predict by offense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2012 04:55PM by ChyrenB.

the thing is, while last year it may not have been such a big deal to switch between 4-3 and 3-4, I think Solia and Langford are straight up 3-4 guys and they are FA. So if we let them walk, we need to replace them with 4-3 type guys and then we are all in on the 4-3, it would be less of a hybrid and we create new needs to fill in the offseason.
again I hate the idea of letting Solia go for nothing. he is a Pro Bowl NT and those guys are even more rare than Pro Bowl Qbs, and who ever lets them go for nothing? But that's just the way of this team

Berk- we cant let Solia walk for nothing.... that would be horrible business... If nothing else we need to sign him and trade him out next year... He is worth at least a 1st rd pick, if we trade him while under contract... the difference between nothing and 1st rd pick, is the difference between being a winner GM and a loser...we shall see

totally agree crowder but we're too shortsighted to make a move like frachising then trading him

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> totally agree crowder but we're too shortsighted
> to make a move like frachising then trading him


What if nobody wants him at $15 mill per season?

that's why they restructure deals every day

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> that's why they restructure deals every day


Not following how that ties into "franchising him and then trading him".

If we tag him...he's going to have that salary. Maybe you sign him to a long term deal but you probably don't since you couldn't get it done before you franchised him.

Maybe you can pull off a 'sign and trade' after you tag him but there are good reasons that sign and trades are very rare in the NFL and that most restructures are done AFTER there team acquires him.

I'd like to keep him but at the end of the day this is the NFL and you can't keep everyone..there is a hard cap.

You still want to keep Soliai if tagging him him means you don't have the money to sign Manning or Flynn?

See what pats did with Matt cassell

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See what pats did with Matt cassell


A) There was no restructured contract with Cassell.

The Pats tagged him and then traded him to KC who re-worked his deal.

Cassell is a QB. And only TWO teams were after his services. Just how many teams are you expecting to be interested in taking Soliai off your hands at $15 mill a year? And what are you hoping to get for him?

And if you can't make a trade who are you planning on cutting to free up cap space for a QB?

what i am saying is we franchise him and then trade him to a team that reworks his deal so they don't need to pay the franchise #. I get there is a risk that there are no takers or solia refuses to redo his deal with the new team, but I say we take that chance rather than let him go for nothing, I mean when the hell does a team let a pro bowl player at such an in demand position go for nothing??

The problem w/Soliai is that we couldn't get a long-term deal worked out before having to put the franchise tag on him, raising his salary from $550,000 to $12.4 million. Don't know whether that failure was on Ireland or Soliai's agent.

But since Vince Wilfork's 2010 contract pays him $8 million a year, we should have been able to work out something below that.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what i am saying is we franchise him and then
> trade him to a team that reworks his deal so they
> don't need to pay the franchise #. I get there is
> a risk that there are no takers or solia refuses
> to redo his deal with the new team, but I say we
> take that chance rather than let him go for
> nothing, I mean when the hell does a team let a
> pro bowl player at such an in demand position go
> for nothing??


I don't like the idea of letting him go for nothing either.

I'm just asking people to think the process out.

Its one thing to try to trade a QB with a $15 million tag on him. That's roughly the going rate for a franchise level QB (not saying Cassel is that, just the he was perceived to be at the time).

Its an entirely different matter to trade a DT who is on the field 2/3 of the time for that kind of money. Very few teams are going to wreck their cap for a guy who is rarely on the field when teams pass the ball.

Cassel was a potential franchise QB and he was traded (*along with Mike Vrabel) for a 2nd round pick.

I think you have to take into account what we are likely to get for him, the fact that we could get stuck with him and the impact that has on our ability to get a QB or keep other players.

I'd like to keep him. I'd also like to get something for him if I have to get rid of him. I'm just not sure its worth the risk to tag him.

I'm pretty sure a Pro Bowl NT can fetch a 2d rounder. I am also pretty sure a team that wanted him would be able to work out a long term deal to make it happen. The only reason I don't take the risk is if the timing is such that we can't make any other moves until he is dealt bc our cap is tied up in 1 players. Seems we are never the team that gets extra picks, only the one that gives them up, in this kind of a situation.
As for a sign and trade, isn't that essentially what we did to get Reggie Bush this year? I think we first worked out the long term deal and then make the trade with the saints (obviously with their permission all along)

SOlia has demand, just to name a few teams like the patriots, jets, etc..would love to have him... SOlia is worth a 1st, not a second IMO. As others have said, probowl NT is as hard to find as a franchise QB. Lets take VInce WIlfork, similar player to SOlia... He was a 1st rd pick..
all these teams ran a 3-4 or vairation of it in 2012

Arizona Cardinals
Baltimore Ravens
Dallas Cowboys
Green Bay Packers
Houston Texans
Kansas City Chiefs
Indianapolis Colts
New York Jets
Pittsburgh Steelers
San Diego Chargers
San Francisco 49ers
Washington Redskins
Buffalo Bills

crowder his price will be driven down by the fact that everyone knows we HAVE to trade him. I think he should fetch a 1st given the demand at the position, but we'd end up taking less than that. As Truth points out, there's a big risk if we tag him and don't trade him, since we'd be stuck with a big chunck of cap space on a player who apparently no longer fits our scheme.
Can't we play him as a 4-3 DT, like Tim Bowens or Gardner? They were huge as well and fit the scheme just fine.

I’m not sure we had to get into this position to begin with. There’s been a ton of time expired since Paul emerged and was subsequently franchised last year along with this entire past season – and we couldn’t get a new contract established?

If we foresaw the predicament we’re in we should have found a way to either sign Paul and prepare for a trade, or sign with the intent of keeping him in a Dolphin uniform. This situation just seems a bit helter-skelter and lacks focus and coherency from the top.

For a while we were finding ways to get draft picks for guys (i.e., JT, Ginn etc.) rather than do the lazy thing and just let ‘em go for nothing. Obviously there are salary cap ramifications involved in this, and the change of D system blah blah.

But someone needs to be tending to the store with more attention to the big stuff, and letting Soliai walk would be a REALY BIG thing. My opinion of course.

And that’s a fact!

BNF.

Berk, we dont have to trade him.... He can easily play DT in the 4-3... Other NT, have been known to play the DT position when in the 4-3... I am also pretty sure that at times SOlia did play DT in the 4-3 for us last year...We also have not committed to not running 3-4 4-3 hyrbid...
You dont let a probowler walk... You make it work...

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOlia has demand, just to name a few teams like
> the patriots, jets, etc..would love to have him...
> SOlia is worth a 1st, not a second IMO.

The Patriots? At $15 mill a year?

Not a chance.

They have Wilfork, who is twice the player...and he's making $8 mill a year.

Its a fantasy to think that they would trade a #1 pick to us so they can pay Soliai $10-15 mill a year and either cut Wilfork or tie up $20 mill a season in a pair of DT's, only one of which is going to play 400+ snaps.

Now lets take a look at the rest of your list.

Arizona: Paying Darnell Docket $12 mill a year and used a 1st round pick 2 years ago on his backup...dan williams. Interest level in trading 1st round pick for the right to pay Soliai $12 mill a year....ZERO.

Ravens: Just gave Haloti Ngata 5 years and 61 mill last season...interest level...ZERO

Dallas: Has PB'er Jay Ratliff at NT...paying him $8+ mill. Now he's a little light for the position so they could take Soliai and move Ratliff to DE...Interest....marginal...25%

GB: Only publicly owned franchise is notoriously tight with a penny. Also just Draft BJ Raji at NT two years ago and are mid way through his rookie contract. Interes in Soliai for a 1st....ZERO

Houston: has Shaun Cody at NT right now...good possible fit.

KC: Not much at NT...also a good possible fit.

Colts: They play a 4-3 built around edge rushers Freeny and Mathis. Maybe that changes.,..but until it does...No interest.

Jets: Jets are over the cap. They need pass rushers not a NT that they can't afford. While they could be interested they can't afford him.

Pitt: Has Casey Hampton.

Chargers: Possible fit.

SF: Maybe...but defense is hardly their problem at this point. Probably pretty content with thier NT rotation.

Was: Another possible fit but after Albert Haynesworth do you really see them trading a #1 for the right to pay Soliai $12+mill a year?

Buffalo: Forget it. They just draft Dareus with the 3rd pick last draft. No shot.

There just aren't as many teams with a need as you think and when you add in the fact that this is an offensive...passing driven league...there just aren't that many teams willing to part with a high draft pick and tie up so much cap space on a part time defensive player.

Look, I hope I'm wrong and we trade him for a bunch of 1st round picks. I just don't see it happening. And when it doesn't happen it won't be because our front office screwed up...it will be because the reality of the situation falls far short of our fans expectations.

slipstream Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem w/Soliai is that we couldn't get a
> long-term deal worked out before having to put the
> franchise tag on him, raising his salary from
> $550,000 to $12.4 million. Don't know whether
> that failure was on Ireland or Soliai's agent.
>

Soliai was a restricted free agent. Under the old CBA, we were only allowed to offer him a certain percentage pay raise. Other teams were looking to offer him $7M per season. Because of the CBA, we could not go that high without franchising him. Its no one's fault, just how the old CBA worked.

Paul Soliai cost ten percent of our salary cap last season, and yet was on the field for just 35% of our defensive snaps. He is not Vince Woolfork or Haloti Ngata. He is a non factor in the pass rush. As such, that limits his market value to that $7M range. But, the franchise tag for him is $15M. This is where the problem is. No team would touch him at that salary. Thus, we cannot franchise him.

we could've extended him at any time over the past 12 months. Saved cap space and given us a true trade chip this offseason. Total mismanagement in not doing so.

PF2, what are you talking about? SOlia is not going to make 15 million dollar a year from anyone, including us... So start over with that logic... He will get between 7-10 per on a multi year deal, thats roughly half to 2/3 of what you are quoting....
SOmetimes you are so adamant to argue, you make so much of what you say a reach to just to be able to argue with me...lol... sorry but I bow out, it just hogwash, double talk, non sense in talking to people with that type of rebel with out a cause... You oppose just to oppose... The sky is blue, no its not it s purple... Believe what you want my friend, I dont have the time to waste, on mental masturbation of this kind..

crowder I agree no one is going to pay him $15mm next year (though who'dve thought we would last year?) but the only way we can trade him is to tag him at that number, and then depend on solai be willing to work out a new deal with whoever we trade him to. that gives solai and that team the leverage over us and makes it certain we won't get more than a 2d rounder for him