not buying it. the QB position is by far the most important position---as has been debated to death, a Pro Bowl QB virtually assures you of the playoffs and maybe SB, a Pro Bowl LT assures you of nothing. but this top 100 list can't be all QBs in the top 10, that would not make for an interesting list. On paper, perhaps Jake is better than Ryan in terms of how much better he is than his positional peers, but in real world terms he is not (just look at the difference in how much better ATL is now since getting Ryan, versus us, who is still trying to make the playoffs, and even put together a decent OL).

hey to eac his own, but neither of us play on the field with the 2. And the guys that actually play on the field and compete against these guys rate Long alot higher then Ryan... There is no buying it, it is a fact...

it's been asked before, but would you trade Long for Ryan? I think everyone who filled out that survey would in a second, and none would trade Ryan for Long.

I dont know, Matt Ryan and Flacco both have pretty bad post season numbers, meaning they have not stepped up when it matters most.... Hell, Mark Sanchez's post season number leaves Flacco and Ryan both in the dust... THere are lost of variables and arguments when judging a player.... But the guys that compete say Long is better then 31, and Ryan is only 52... Just another interesting point and fact to the conversation...

Berk, you said "it's been asked before, but would you trade Long for Ryan? I think everyone who filled out that survey would in a second, and none would trade Ryan for Long."

I agree. I think that's the wrong question though. In response to what Crowder brought up when opening this discussion;

The argument here is getting muddled because of two seperate concepts.

1. Who is the most dominant at their position
2. What position is more important

Yes, Berk people wouldn't trade Ryan for Long, but that's because QB is the more important position. But WITHIN their respective positions, Long is apparently viewed as better.

It's the difference between Long being better at his job (protecting the Q than Ryan at his (beign a Q is the point I think. The most important position may be QB, but apparently the players feel that the guy responsible for protecting him (Long) handles that responsibility better than Ryan handles his responsibilities at QB. In spite of that, most would take Ryan anyway, and they would be right. But I see why a group of their peers may have listed Long as "better" given the measuring stick that was apparently used to develop this list.

I have another question for you regarding Jake Long, Matt Ryan and top 100....

Does it help Matt Ryan, that his entire career he has had 3 other offensive players in the top 100 with him... Where Jake has had one for one year, that ranks 61 above all 4 offensive Falcons that made the list...

Because I am pretty sure, Micheal Turner(42), Roddy White(under 31) and Tony Gonzalez(46) all made the list......... So Ryan has a RB, a TE, an WR in the TOP 100 all better then Marshall ranking at 61 the only offensive teammate of Long on the list...
Do we think that has helped MR Ryan. Hell if Henne had a RB, a TE that could make the top 100, he might be on the list as well...lol

Panterize,
the fact that all 3 offensive sklled positions on his own team rank ahead of Ryan... Meaning I think his peers believe he is a success becasue of the guys he plays with.. Otherwise why would they rank all of Ryans offensive teammates ahead of him.... Tells you something that others might not realize, doesnt it.....

Ask yourself this, Do you think Marinos peers would have ranked Clayton, DUper, ahead of him if they voted on the same list back in the day......of course not, but Matt Ryan's peers did... So there is something missing, IMO...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2011 10:37AM by Crowder52.

Crowder 52 Said:
-----------------------
Panteraize,
the fact that all 3 offensive sklled positions on his own team rank ahead of Ryan... Meaning I think his peers believe he is a success becasue of the guys he plays with.. Otherwise why would they rank all of Ryans offensive teammates ahead of him.... Tells you something that others might not realize, doesnt it.....

Ask yourself this, Do you think Marinos peers would have ranked Clayton, DUper, ahead of him if they voted on the same list back in the day......of course not, but Matt Ryan's peers did... So there is something missing, IMO...



Completely agree with these statements

it's kind of a chicken and egg argument. if we had ryan or a pro bowl caliber QB, I bet one of our RBs and 1 or 2 WRs make the top 10.

who was our LT in the Marino years before Webb? I honestly don't remember.

The Starting left tackle before Webb was a 1st rd (24) pick out of Michigan, Jon Geisler, and then we took Dwight STephenson on the 2nd Rd of 1980, we took 2 Rb's in overstreet 1st rd and Adrea Franklin 2nd in 1981.
Then 1982 We Took a Guard in the 1st rd Roy Foster (Probowler), and Mark Duper in the second..
Then Marino in 1983, and Clayton in the sixth rd of the same draft...

SO Marino had a pretty good team built around him, Once Geisler left after ten season they made Webb another 1st rd left tackle number 9 pick in the draft... We havent had a good left tackle on the dolphins that wasnt drafted in the 1st rd by us, at least in my lifetime...

Berk- the difference is , TOny Gonzalez, Micheal TUrner and Roddy White wereall pro bowlers before Matt Ryan was ever drafted, so dont confuse the facts.. Your response made it sound like Ryan was the reason they became probowlers, I think it is the opposite, those guys are the reason Ryan has done so well so early.

pretty sure neither turner nor white ever sniffed the pro bowl before ryan got there (white was considered a bust and turner arrived same year as ryan). I could be wrong but don't think so

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Starting left tackle before Webb was a 1st rd
> (24) pick out of Michigan, Jon Geisler, and then
> we took Dwight STephenson on the 2nd Rd of 1980,
> we took 2 Rb's in overstreet 1st rd and Adrea
> Franklin 2nd in 1981.
> Then 1982 We Took a Guard in the 1st rd Roy Foster
> (Probowler), and Mark Duper in the second..
> Then Marino in 1983, and Clayton in the sixth rd
> of the same draft...
>
> SO Marino had a pretty good team built around him,
> Once Geisler left after ten season they made Webb
> another 1st rd left tackle number 9 pick in the
> draft... We havent had a good left tackle on the
> dolphins that wasnt drafted in the 1st rd by us,
> at least in my lifetime...

now I remember Geisler. he was always hurt though. having a QB who could fling the ball in 1 second definately helped the line!

Lol....Roddy White a bust before Ryan got their, you are just plain dillusional or have serious selective memory.. SHould Joey Harrington be on the list becasue in 2007 He led Roddy White to his elite status, with over 1200 yards and half dozen touchdowns. But you are right it is all Ryan...Even when I guy who cant play in the league threw him that many yards and TD's.. GOnzalez was a probowler with what Thigpen and Brody Coyle throwing to him, Turner was behind LT and a stud in San Diego with limited reps... so much so, that the Falcons paid Turner 35 million dollars to sign with the team..
SO I hardly think, Ryan made these guys, more like I said these guys made Ryan... That is why all of their peers voted Ryan behind the others... Pretty simple...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2011 03:00AM by Crowder52.

you're right, Ryan sucks. I'd much rather have a LT than a good QB. Because THAT'S worked well around here the past 15 years.

He obviously doesnt suck, but I am trying to say is he, benefits from the system, and offesive talent around him everywhere... And had Miami drafted him, and not had a left tackle, or the same offensive talent in place, it probably would have made a huge impact on how people view his talent... He is in the best case scenario for his position and place... And look, Atlanta went up and spent a top 7 pick on one of the most explosive offensive talents in the draft in Julio Jones... Atlanta has stacked all the talent in the wolrd they could possibly get around the guy.... Put Henne in Atlanta, and I bet he takes them to the play off's as well. And maybe could even win one...
That is all, it is not a black and white comparison... Trade Ryan for Long, and I dont think our team improves much... We would have a gaping hole at the most important position on the oline, not much talent around him, and in a system that was designed to dump the ball off and not make mistakes... Much different then what Ryan has done well in..

I think you are discounting how much better a good QB makes the players around him. Our skill players looked pretty damn good with Pennington throwing the ball in 2007 since he put the ball right on the money each time. Having a viable passing game opened up running lanes too. I disagree that Henne on the Falcons would have the same results for their WRs. How many TDs/bombs this year were blown because Henne couldnt' get the pass where it needed to be?

The system was designed for Pennington, short dump off passes, and the Oline played much better that year. But that is also thanks to that glaring hole being filled by a probowl left tackle... And we had a top 5 running game, we still had speed to stretch the field in Ginn...

TD bombs? How many were called 3, he connected on 1... We had no deep threat. How many balls were dropped by receivers last year, long and short... How bad was the oline play, how bad was the running game as a whole. Where was the speed needed to open up the field. How many times did we send more then 2 recievers anywhere down field, that were covered by by 2 safeties and 3 cb's... The system sucked for Henne last year... He is a strong arm Qb who can challenge the whole field. The system couldnt do it, when given the chance Henne can clearly make the throw

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
It appears Jake just dont get no
> respect except from his peers who have to actually
> compete against him...


Exactly and thats the only thing that matters. The opponents who have to go through him to get to the QB..........Or who get knocked out or pancaked by him.........These so called opponents and the only ones who can tell you how good he is.

All these other mighty experts from espn do is talk crap.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you're right, Ryan sucks. I'd much rather have a
> LT than a good QB. Because THAT'S worked well
> around here the past 15 years.


Come on now i wouldnt go as far as saying he stinks...Would be nice to have both of them at the same time here in phinland

EDIT: OK Just got your sarcasm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2011 08:46AM by samsam3738.

Hey maybe marino made richmond webb and keith sims superstars...Or close to it...Maybe they really werent that good afterall...

Marinos quick release was what? 2 seconds maybe 2 and a half?

A great QB can make a OLmens life much easier.

Sometimes i wonder how good players like lets say tim ruddy webb sims ect would had been playing behind chad henne. Or the 2 or 3 years ago culpepper?

Probably atrocious.

BTW let the record show i was a huge fan of richmond webb ....He got to go to work against none other than bruce smith for a long time and did well...That alone made me a fan....I still hate the bills of back then.
The bills of now suck so i dont have much beef with them........My beef has always been with the PUKATOID Jets.


I had a richmond webb autographed cap at a phins practice once..

Also the cap included stoyanovich terrell buckley troy vincent jb brown....and a few others.

don't get me wrong, Jake Long is a great player and probably the best at his position. my point is just that I'd rather have the 5th best QB over the 1st best LT. no reason we can't have both, if only the team had any degree of competence in picking QBs....

I understand your point, but I think Ryan is the 5th best Qb becasue of the team he is on, the players who he is surrounded by and the system that he is in. If Ryan was drafted by the Dolphins, I dont think he would be in the top 100. I think the dolphins have neglected the position,in every aspect. The Qb spot was an after thought, in Hennings offense. It was, dont make mistakes with the position and let the running game win the ball game... There is not much of a chance for a guy to develop. He designed the offense for the QB to only make short high percentage passes 95 percent of the time... The only separation and benfit to the passing game, was the play action and misdirection effectiveness of the power running game. And speed to stretch the field. Without anything to stretch the field and no running game.. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees would have all fallen flat in our offense last year... That is what I dont think you are understanding about judging players and saying on this team, they would be the same guy, especially a QB, just is not going to happen...

What do you think Henne would look like, if next year, he had Micheal TUrner in the backfield, TOny Gonzales lined up at TE, Roddy WHite on the outside, and Julio jones in the slot and Micheal Jenkins..... ANymore questions?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2011 10:52AM by Crowder52.

look at who manning and brady threw to last year. due to injuries manning was thorwing to guys like garcon, tamme, and that slow white WR out of michigan state (forget his name). brady throws to a bunch of no names. neither had any RB to speak of. however, both QBs got the maximum out of that group---and I think our WRs and RBs are better. For the most part, the QB makes the supporting cast, not the other way around. If you put Henne on those teams they will rank at the bottom of passing offense instead of the top.
I am with you 100000% on the horrible play calling for us last year, though.

But Brady, benefits from a system and so does Manning. Both systems are iron clad and have good team built around them in critical spots. Look how well Cassel did when dropped in place. A good system and game plan, with good coaching is critical.. Cassell in his first year in KC, looked nothing like the guy he looked like in NE



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2011 11:09AM by Crowder52.

hey at least we now have Brian Daboll and his high powered offense running the show!

I honestly believe our offense will be effective this year...and hopefully everybody will feel better about, all the picks and players on the offense, from Marshall, to Henne, to Hartline, to Fasano, to Bess, to Daniel THomas, to Pouncey, Long and the rest of the crew... We have some nice pieces, they just need the right mind to place them all and a few steps ahead of the opposing cordinator, much like Nolan has done with our defense..