I like him , but I understand where the argument is coming from. His first year, he caught everything anywhere near him when given the chance. He made some remarkable pressure catches at times his rookie year. Then his second year, or last year, we had higher expectations for the guy, and then he started to drop some balls last year, some third down balls, so people started to sour a bit, then he got hurt... So he still has not shown, a full season of consistency, of those flashes of potential he showed in minimal oppurtunities his rookie year.
But if he stays healthy, and doesnt get the case of the drops, he could be a 1000 yard guy..

It's interesting what happens with perception. Hartline dropped a couple of passes early in the 2010 season, at critical moments, and the perception lives on that he had problems with drops last year. He really didn't. He dropped 4 passes all season. Bess dropped 6, and Marshall dropped 13. He had 2 drops in the season opener, 1 against the Patriots in week 4, and then one against Cincinnati. He averaged 5.0 yards after catch, which was better than Bess (4.1) and Marshall (2.7).

He finished the year with 43 catches for 615 yards. This was in 11.5 games. That projects to a 60 catch, 850 yard full season. That's a very valuable offensive contribution. And really, focus on what he did from game 3 through game 11 (his last full game before the injury). That's a 9 game stretch with 40 catches for 587 yards. That's a 70 catch, 1000 yard pace. He really found a niche in the offense, and from a yardage standpoint was the team's most productive receiver.

And you can take that even further. Look at his last 4 full games before the injury.

Baltimore- 4 catches, 80 yards
Tennessee- 5 catches, 98 yards
Chicago- 5 catches, 70 yards
Oakland- 4 catches, 75 yards

Project that over a full season, and it's a 1300 yard pace.

I've seen some people saying that Hartline may not make the team. That is crazy talk. He is invaluable to the team right now. He is the only guy who learns all of the WR positions. That versatility is very important. He plays the Z position, but has enough size and speed to play the X. And he can also slide into the slot and fill the Y role. None of our other receivers have the combination of size, speed, and skills to fill all three roles. The team is looking for more big plays and more speed on offense. And we'd cut the guy who averages the most yards per catch and who is faster than either of our two big name WR? I don't think so.

Some of that talk centers around Edmond Gates. Gates is making the leap from D2 to the NFL. It's hard enough for a rookie WR to make the jump from D1 to the NFL. In college, WR get by on pure athleticism. In the NFL, they need to learn to read defenses because option routes are an important part of every team's offense. And they need to learn technique, because every CB is really fast. And they need to learn to beat the jam, because they just don't get to go against it much in college. All of these things will be more difficult for Gates than many players because of the leap he is trying to make. And he's going to have to do it without the benefit of OTAs. His role is going to be kept very simple. He is going to be asked to run flys, deep posts, and maybe some bubble screens. He won't be fully integrated into the offense until 2012 or 2013. That's just sort of a normal progression for a WR. And long term, Gates is a much more natural fit at the X receiver spot. He may not even be real competition for Hartline down the road, because Hartline is more suited for the Z role.

Everyone here knows that I am very anti-Brandon Marshall. His off field behavior is bad enough, but I have no use for a guy who is as selfish on the field as he is. I don't think that kind of player is going to help us become an elite team. He's a very good player, but you can't have a guy demanding 100 catches, and who will pout and commit penalties if he isn't getting them. He needs to accept a role, and if the role is for 60 catches, then he needs to be happy with it as long as the team is winning. And Marshall is not that kind of guy. I am confident enough in Hartline's development that I think we'd be better off saving the $6.5M by dumping Marshall, and replacing him with more of a big play threat, like Malcolm Floyd, James Jones, or even Braylon Edwards. From a pure skill set standpoint, I think a receiving corps of Bess/Hartline/Floyd/Gates is a better fit than having Marshall in there. Marshall plays the X, but he's not a downfield guy. Never has been. In Denver, he averaged 12 yards per catch, 8 yards through the air, and 4 yards after the catch. In Miami, he averaged 12 yards per catch, 10 in the air, and 2 after the catch. He and Bess do their best work in the same part of the field. And having those two guys as our two primary targets, it brings the safeties closer to the line, which congests passing lanes, and makes it easier for the safeties to help against the run. I really believe we'd be a better offense with Floyd than Marshall. You have Bess doing what he does in the slot, nothing changes for him. Hartline continues at the Z position, where he has shown the ability to be a 60-70 catch guy for over 800 yards. You put Floyd at X, where he can catch 40 passes for 700+ yards, and be a guy who consistently stretches the field, and forces safeties to cover him deep. And by doing so, he opens up the shorter routes for Bess, Hartline, and the TEs. Gates is the 4th WR, a pure speed threat. You have him and Floyd clearing out the safeties deep on both sides, and you are left with 1 on 1 everywhere else. And you replace Marshall's overall production with 40 catches from Floyd, more catches for Hartline, more catches for Fasano, more catches for Clay, and more catches for the #4 WR.

Dolfanmark- How many drops did he have his rookie season?
Perception becomes reality sometimes. As I said he dropped some critical third dowm balls against a division rival. Most of the time in football, it is about when and against who you have your drops. Some of them, float right past memory, normally becasue of a win, and others stick in your head forever... All of our recievers dropped the ball at critical times last year, Bess, Hartline and obviously Marshall. The injury didnt help his quest to become elite.... But it did help the stat that he only had 4 drops... Bess had 6 drops but played probably every game...

Marshall had his share of drops but is known for being a play maker. He had a down year as far as big plays but look at the pathetic offense he played in. You don't cut a guy after one year after giving up two second round picks for him. He was our first 1k receiver in how long? 2005 with Chris Chambers?

What has he done that was so bad to deserve this other than be a victim of a crime? He obviously has problems with women but the crazy bitch stabbed him and he didn't even punch her back. That's growth! Lol

All big time receivers are selfish divas...its the nature of the position. Very few of the greats were not. The fact that he had a thousand yards in an terrible offense is pretty impressive.

From what I have seen from the guy he seems to be more dedicated than ever and I expect him to get back to dominant form. He has spent the entire off season in speed camp and conditioning.

We need to stockpile play makers not get rid of them.

Everyone complained last year that we didn't have a deep threat to compliment him. Now we do (hopefully) so let's see what happens.

I agree about Hartline. Good player going into key 3rd year.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

It's all about physical tools. Hartline doesn't have the tools to beat out Marshall and Gates if those 2 guys reach their potential. Hartline isn't going to beat out Bess for the slot either. That leaves him as a #4 WR. A darn GOOD #4 WR, but a #4 nonetheless.

Its so funny that people knock Hartline when Mark showed the stats to back Hartline up.

People claim he doesnt have the physical tools, neither does Wes Welker. People say Zach Thomas didnt have the physical tools, either.

Hartline is a hard-nosed, hard-worker, who can play every WR position.

Again, he is the guy that we will cut/trade and then he will go somewhere else and be a star.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Hartline is our number 2 receiver. Gates is not even signed and has not participated in even one mini camp yet. It would be almost unprecedented for him to take over as the starter from day one.

Hartline was able to get on the field early but it was very fortunate for Miami for a 4th rounder to do so. He also did not have much competition. (Camarillo, Ginn and Bess) Hartline only got on the field because he was smart enough to absorb the playbook early....for all 3 positions!

Odds are against Gates doing the same but he will most likely find his niche in limited packages.

Interesting fact....Hartline was 108th pick in 09 draft. Gates was 111th.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Very true. We didn't run 3 wr sets very often partly due to bad pass protection. The edge goes to Bess though as he had more snaps.

I fully expect that to change this year with many more single back 3 rec sets but Hartline still may lose time due to packages for Gates with Bess possibly spending more time in the slot. Who knows how it plays out?

Marshall may end up in the slot with Hartline and Gates on the outside. Many possibilities here depending on the development of Gates.

Bess, even though viewed as a slot guy lined up outside more than he did in the slot in 2010. I think he got the call bc he was a security blanket for Henne and his check downs to short and intermediate routes.

At least we have some flexibility that we didn't have last year with better depth...assuming Gates doesn't pull a Pat Turner.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

If Hartline had Rodgers, Brady, Manning, or Brees throwing him passes he would be a 1,000 yard reciever.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Assuming those quarterbacks had the same team behind them that they played with in 2010 and not the Miami Dolphin offensive team.

DM took the time to make the point I would have. We are darn fortunate to have Hartline. Whether he's our #2, 3 or 4 receiver, he's a football player that adds value to our team.

Marshall is not getting suspended for getting stabbed.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I feel he isn't the deep or red zone threat so pretty much redundant with Bess. Would like to send him to CLE for Evan Moore

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Marshall had his share of drops but is known for
> being a play maker. He had a down year as far as
> big plays but look at the pathetic offense he
> played in.

Another perception vs reality thing. In 2009, Marshall averaged 11.1 yards per catch in Denver. He improved to 11.8 in Miami. He's averaged 12 yards per catch for his career, so while he has this reputation for big plays, the reality is that he is most definitely not a big play receiver. You should not be paying $10M per season for a guy who averages 12 yards per catch.

Since this regime took over in 2008, the only Dolphins receivers to average more than 12 yards per catch are Hartline, who has done it both of his years, and Ted Ginn in 2008. For a team that needs more plays made downfield, Hartline is not going anywhere.

Your right. It is a perception vs reality thing...but your perception seems to be based on a few factors...mostly the yards per reception stat.

This is a guy that had mulriple 100 catch seasons. When you catch that many balls and are the focus of an offense of course the ypc average is going to be lower.

What about Chris Carter? His career ypc is only 12.6...so does that mean he wasn't a playmaker?

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Harline is in a critical year for him. If he stays healthy I expect big things from him, if he has another injury, I am not sure, how to feel about him.
He has showed potential, but until you break a thousand yards or ten Td's, He is just another avg NFL reciever. Granted the injury prevented it, but it is still the fact. I definetly agree he makes the team, and at this point he would be the number 3 in my book. I like Gates, but he hasnt done anything yet... WE all expected Patrick Turner to beat out Hartline, and we all know how that worked out..lol...
Just because people arent in love with a Hartline, doesnt mean they dont like him or believe in him. I find it hard to understand

On a side not-DOlfanmark, how you are so hot on Hartline and his stats, but somehow Marshall and his stats, mean he is a bum, who isnt very good.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Harline is in a critical year for him. If he stays
> healthy I expect big things from him, if he has
> another injury, I am not sure, how to feel about
> him.
> He has showed potential, but until you break a
> thousand yards or ten Td's, He is just another avg
> NFL reciever. Granted the injury prevented it, but
> it is still the fact. I definetly agree he makes
> the team, and at this point he would be the number
> 3 in my book. I like Gates, but he hasnt done
> anything yet... WE all expected Patrick Turner to
> beat out Hartline, and we all know how that worked
> out..lol...
> Just because people arent in love with a Hartline,
> doesnt mean they dont like him or believe in him.
> I find it hard to understand
>
> On a side not-DOlfanmark, how you are so hot on
> Hartline and his stats, but somehow Marshall and
> his stats, mean he is a bum, who isnt very good.


Well, number one, I have no use for Marshall as a person because of his abuse of women and how he lied to protect his cousin in the Darrent Williams incident. And I have no use for his selfish attitude on the field, putting himself ahead of the team.

Hartline's averaged 3 more yards per catch than Marshall, which is 25% more than Marshall. Hartline's also never finished in the top 10 in the league in drops, which Marshall has done at least 3 years in a row. And Marshall makes 20 times as much money as Hartline.

For $10M a year, I want an elite receiver, a guy who can make the tough catch, and also make the big play, and to be able to do both in the clutch. Marshall is not that guy. His hands aren't dependable, and for his entire career he has averaged 12 yards per catch. He is not a big play guy, in spite of his reputation. He's not Roddy White, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Lloyd, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Mike Wallace, Dwayne Bowe, Greg Jennings, Vincent Jackson, or even Hakeem Nicks or Miles Austin. I'd take any of them over Marshall.

And, he's not a team player. He is a "me first" guy. And I don't think that's the kind of guy who puts you over the top. And watching him play, I just wasn't impressed. He gets very little separation from defenders, and really depends on his size to be able to make catches. His first move after the catch was always to stop running, and try to reverse direction, and he usually fell down. He was very unimpressive. And this was despite a chance for bigger things in Miami. In Denver, he averaged 8 yards per catch, plus another 4 after the catch. In Miami, we actually got him the ball further downfield, averaging 10 yards per catch, but he was the worst guy on the team after the catch.

And finally, I just feel Marshall is a bad fit given our other personnel. He and Bess do their best work within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. And just by the nature of the positions, the same can be said for Fasano and any of the RBs. That just means most of our passing targets are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. It creates spacing problems for the offense, with fewer passing lanes, more defenders in a smaller area, and less margin for error. Maybe San Diego wouldn't have done the deal, but Vincent Jackson was a much better fit for what our offense needed.

I agree 100% mark.

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"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Roddy White, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Lloyd, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Mike Wallace, Dwayne Bowe, Greg Jennings, Vincent Jackson, or even Hakeem Nicks or Miles Austin


How many of these guys had 3+ 1000 yards seasons in the last 3 years?
I would take Calvin Johnson, Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, and maybe Dwayne Bowe, then I believe Marshall fits in next... I think your hatred towards Marshall's personality, makes you a bit blind to his accomplishments...
Most recievers are me first type of guys, that always want the ball, so that is more the standard then the exception in the star WR world.
I love how everyone agrees the offensive play calling was horrible, and the oline sucked, and it is ok to give others on the offense a pass, becasue of these problems, but not Marshall, Despite the fact with all of our problems Marshall still reached a 1000 yards and 100 receptions... Tell me when the last time Bess or Hartline reached a 1000 yards, Ok?
Also Marshall is double to triple covered almost every pass play. That means he takes up 3 defenders. How many defenders does Hartline take up, 1. Put a safety, a cb, and a LB on hartline and see how he does...lol... Hartline benefits from single coverage on just about every play... When Bess gets double covered, he has a tough time as well. Double coverage, Marshall, looks at as a relief or a break...
Those same reverse direction plays Marshall has been very successful at in the past, it also has to do with how the QB delievers the ball. Marshall has had 3 different coaches and mulitple Qb's in his short career. He played on the second worst offense in the league last year, but still got his numbers... Whether you like it or not, or fail to acknowledge it, Marshall is a "Beast"!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2011 09:44AM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Roddy White, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald,
> Brandon Lloyd, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Mike
> Wallace, Dwayne Bowe, Greg Jennings, Vincent
> Jackson, or even Hakeem Nicks or Miles Austin
>
>
> How many of these guys had 3+ 1000 yards seasons
> in the last 3 years?
> I would take Calvin Johnson, Fitzgerald, Andre
> Johnson, and maybe Dwayne Bowe, then I believe
> Marshall fits in next...

And not Roddy White? White has 4 straight 1000 yard seasons, at over 14 yards per catch. Greg Jennings has averaged over 1200 yards per season and over 16 yards per catch the last 3 seasons. Reggie Wayne has 7 straight 1000 yard seasons, averaging almost 14 yards per catch. Lloyd has only started 1 year, but let's see Marshall put up over 1400 yards at 19 yards per catch. Similar deal for Wallace, let's see Marshall gain 1200 yards at 21 yards per catch. Jackson has 1000 yard seasons each of his last full 2 years, and he's averaged over 17 yards per catch for his career.

profootballfocus.com has been around for 3 years, grading players on each individual play. They factor in blocking, yards after catch, broken tackles, dropped passes, and even penalties committed.

In 2008, Marshall graded out as the 14th best WR in the league. His overall grade was hurt by committing 6 penalties, fumbling 3 times, and being 2nd in the NFL with 16 drops. It should also be noted that he scored just 6 TD, while there were 7 INTs on passes targeted to him. He also had a relatively low catch percentage with only 58% of the passes targeted for him being completions.

In 2009, Marshall was the 30th best WR in the league. His grade was hurt by averaging just 11 yards per catch, a poor blocking grade, committing 5 penalties, and being 9th in the league with 8 drops.

In 2010, Marshall was 28th in the league. His grade was hurt by leading the league with 13 dropped passes, committing 5 penalties, and ranking 93rd in the league in yards after catch.

It should also be noted that in 2008, he had 21 broken tackles. That dropped to 14 in 2009. And it dropped to 9 in 2010. That's a 3 year trend of lost explosiveness.

When you look at the top ranked WR by profootballfocus.com, the tops of the lists make sense. In 2008, the top guys included Steve Smith, Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Vincent Jackson, Larry Fitzgerald, and Roddy White. In 2009, the top guys were Jackson, Sidney Rice, Wayne, Johnson, Wes Welker, Fitzgerald, and Miles Austin. In 2010, the top guys were Brandon Lloyd, Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Fitzgerald, and Jennings. I don't think anyone would debate that those weren't the top guys in those seasons. And this grading system that works for those guys, points out flaws in Marshall's game. Again, for $10M a year, you should get elite. And he's not elite. He is a possession receiver. He's great in that role, as a guy you can count on for 100 catches. But, for $10M a year, I want big plays, total domination. I don't want a guy who runs out of gas against the Jets and can't make the play we need.

Many receivers have that "me first " attitude. But, do they intentionally commit penalties in games they are winning just because they aren't getting catches? Do they intentionally bat down passes during practice because they are unhappy with their coach? Do they sit out a must win game, claiming its for an injury, yet the skip the treatment for the injury? That's Marshall. And I don't think that's the kind of guy that helps you win.

Given his past run-ins with the law, is it going to surprise anyone if Marshall gets in trouble again? And gets suspended by the league? or winds up in jail? And we are stuck with a $10M per year hit on the salary cap because of it? That could devastate our team if it happens.

And really, from a pure football standpoint, his skill set was not what we needed. Everyone knew we needed an X receiver. X receivers get downfield, running deep routes. Instead, we gave $10M to a Y receiver, and tried to force him into that X role. And the result was the poor spacing in the offense that I posted earlier. Ted Ginn was terrible. But, he took a safety with him when he ran his deep routes. With Marshall, that same safety wound up playing close to the line of scrimmage. And that contributed to the struggles of the running game. Vincent Jackson has the ideal skill set for what we needed. If San Diego would have done a deal for two second rounders, Jackson would have been the better choice.

I never said Marshall is a no talent bum. But, he's not a top 10 WR in the league, and certainly does not deserve to be the highest paid WR in the game. And his skills did not address our primary need at the WR position.

And I never said Hartline is amazing. I said it would be stupid to cut or trade Hartline, given the skills and productivity he brings to the table, and the fact that he makes just $500K per year.

For the money hartline makes it would be imposible to find another receiver with the same talents and same low cap hit. Imposible.