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          Zach and JT
Miami Dolphins Civilized Discussion :  Phins.com Phorums The fastest message board... ever.
This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderator for this phorum is JC 
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Zach and JT
Posted by: Jonathan Twilley ()
Date: December 28, 2008 10:37PM

First let me say that they are two of my all-time favorites. With that having been said, they thought they were leaving a loser and joining winners. I imagine that the brother-in-laws are a bit shocked now. I am sure part of them is happy for their former teammates.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: December 28, 2008 11:00PM

I'm sorry for Zach but not for JT. Zach was basically told to go by Parcells. JT, on the other hand, wanted nothing to do with Parcells, and that was his downfall.

Victor

Stephen Ross addressing Tannehill's jersey #: "Hope one day we can retire this jersey."

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: ranger1 ()
Date: December 28, 2008 11:07PM

ZT did not ask to leave as a matter of fact he turned down the pats because it did not feel right. Truly a class act and while I don't blame JT for wanting something else after 10 years of misery I bet he is feeling sorry about his lack of judgement now.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: December 28, 2008 11:26PM

Zach and JT will always be Dolphins in my book. They were the main reason I was able to watch over the last ten years.

I wish them both all the best.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: December 29, 2008 08:29AM

both Zach and JT were class acts and to me phins always. That's just the way the dice roll. I am sure they are both content with things the way they are and view the situation as part of the game.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 08:33AM

I'm very glad we were able to trade JT before the season. We'll get the Skins 2nd round pick for him. If we had to trade JT now coming off a season like he had this year, his trade value would be next to nothing.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: JC ()
Date: December 29, 2008 10:05AM

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am
> sure they are both content with things the way
> they are

Zach, of course--as he was cut outright. With JT I'm not so sure. How could he not rather be in the playoffs right now, in the city where he's been universally worshipped for so many years.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: opus ()
Date: December 29, 2008 10:10AM

Wish we could have brought Zach along for the ride, lord knows he deserves it. JT on the other hand will find out in the offseason what a fickle b&$ch hollywood is and find himself a very lonely man in both the sports and entertainment worlds.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: cshashaty ()
Date: December 29, 2008 10:23AM

Few people will feel sorry for Jason Taylor. He made his choice, now he must accept the consequences. I very much regret that his Dolphin legacy was damaged as a result of his unfortunate decision, because he deserved better.

I still believe the Dolphins made a mistake in cutting Zach Thomas. We all understand the medical concerns at the time he was waived. That being said, there was nothing to lose by keeping him. The cap wouldn't have been issue, which means the risk to the rebuilding process was low. Clearly, he would have been a better option as a starter than Akin Ayodele and a better defensive QB than Channing Crowder. Nothing against Crowder, who has had his finest Dolphin season, or Ayodele, who has had a decent season. Zach would have been a better option as a starter inside with Crowder than Ayodele was.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 10:30AM

I don't feel bad about Jason at all. He wanted out; he got out; he had a bad year; we got a good draft pick. That's all good. Regarding Zach, I hated to see him go. However considering his injury history, I can't second guess the decision to move on without him. It's also worth pointing out that Zach has been a complete non-factor for the last 3 weeks when the Cowboys needed him most.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: cshashaty ()
Date: December 29, 2008 11:04AM

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regarding Zach, I
> hated to see him go. However considering his
> injury history, I can't second guess the decision
> to move on without him. It's also worth pointing
> out that Zach has been a complete non-factor for
> the last 3 weeks when the Cowboys needed him most.


Zach just wasn't comfortable in the 3-4 scheme the Cowboys use and actually played mostly on 3rd downs for the last half of the season. In all fairness to the Dolphins, Dallas's 3-4 just so happens to be the same scheme the Dolphins used this year. So I guess it begs the question as to whether or not Zach would have been a fit.

It is worth noting, however, that Zach did play well in the 3-4 looks that Nick Saban employed during his two seasons as Dolphin coach. That defense, however, was NOT the same variant as the current 3-4 used by the Dolphins.

FYI, Zach told the Dallas Morning News that he doesn't expect to be back in Dallas next year.

Quote:
Dallas Morning News
Linebacker Zach Thomas negated the final three years of his contract by playing in at least 32 percent of the defensive plays this season. Now that he's a free agent, Thomas said he probably will not return to the Cowboys in 2009.

The 13-year veteran from Texas Tech said he had a good year playing for the Cowboys. But for Thomas, playing inside linebacker in a 3-4 base scheme was a huge departure for someone who spent a decade playing middle linebacker in a 4-3.

"It was a good experience, though," said Thomas, who praised both Bradie James and Kevin Burnett. "It was real good. Happy to play with a lot of good guys with this team. There are a lot of good guys on this team. We just never got it together and I'm disappointed, but what more can you say?

"I want to come back, but it's hard to do something for 12 years and play a position and try to change just to make it work. I wanted to come back to Texas, you know? It's a little out of my comfort zone playing a different position."

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 11:13AM

Do you think that Zach not playing well could also be a result of age and deteriorating skills? Or do you attribute it solely to the scheme? I think age and skills are also a factor.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Westcoastphinfan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 11:57AM

I miss both Zach and Jason, and I appreciate the great things each did for our team for the past ten years. They will always be Dolphin heroes to me. Hopefully when they do retire, our team will take them back briefly so they can retire as Miami Dolphins.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: cshashaty ()
Date: December 29, 2008 12:21PM

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you think that Zach not playing well could also
> be a result of age and deteriorating skills? Or
> do you attribute it solely to the scheme? I think
> age and skills are also a factor.

Certainly, that's the case for any LB in their 12th year.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 12:33PM

Ok - so he is older and failed to make an impact in a scheme very similar to what we run. Beyond that, there are medical concerns that the next big blow to his head could cause permanent harm. So why do you think it was a mistake for the Phins to cut him? I don't see the logic.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: cshashaty ()
Date: December 29, 2008 01:12PM

1) He's still a good player, even in his 12th season.

2) He stayed healthy for 16 games.

3) He's better than Ayodele and certainly better than Torbor.

Those would be the main reasons...

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 01:25PM

Statistically speaking, Ayodele and Zach were very similar this year. However, Ayodele is 6 years younger and is much less likely to break down.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: cshashaty ()
Date: December 29, 2008 01:45PM

It's not about Zach vs. Ayodele...it's about building the best roster you can. The Dolphins weakened themselves by cutting Zach.

Even as a 12 year vet, Zach still had more tackles than Ayodele (94 vs 75). And who would you rather have quarterbacking your defense, Crowder, Ayodele, or Zach?

The Dolphins blew it with Zach. They should have kept him.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 01:55PM

Whatever. The Phins are 11-5; so I'm not going to complain about the decision to cut a 36 year old LB who only played in 5 games last year and went to have a very average year this year. I was a huge Zach fan; but he had to leave sometime.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: December 29, 2008 02:37PM

both guys gave all they had to the Phins while they were here. Zach was moved because of age and declining skills, watch the Ravens game, he got killed. Some fans continue to have spite for JT but watching JT as he plays and interviews in the DC media the guy seems quite content with where he is in life and I salute him. As a fan you could not ask more of these guys when they suited up for us and that's all I remember about the both of them, what they did in a phins uni

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: dgoodhue ()
Date: December 29, 2008 08:35PM

I feel bad that Zach went to the Cowboys and their Soap Opera locker room.

I am personally not bitter at JT. He spent the prior 4 years in Miami with little success. I don't think his heart was in the NFL last offseason.

Both ZT and JT were great Dolphin players. In some ways I wish Miami could have kept Zach around for the ride this year even if it was in a limited role.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: grooves12 ()
Date: December 29, 2008 09:08PM

I disagree... realistically nobody thought this team would be legitimately in the hunt for a playoff spot this year.

Would Zach be a better QB for the defense?? Of course... and IMO, that is why he needed to go. We've spent a lot of time developing Crowder and it was time to see if he could take over and be the dominant LB we need in the middle, or if we needed to start looking for his replacement in the offseason.

IMO Crowder stepped up to the challenge a bit and put in his best season as a Dolphin. I don't think his play would have got up to the level it did, if he was still playing second fiddle to Zach. Is he Zach in his prime?? or even now?? Probably not, but we now we have a lot better idea of his skillset and potential.

I see it the same way as I see the Dan Marino exit. Was Dan Marino better than our replacement at QB?? Of course... but at some point you have to realize they are no longer capable of being dominant, and when that happens you have to go with the younger alternative even if it means a slight downgrade in hopes of developing them or working on getting a new replacement. Look at Brett Favre... he hindered Aaron Rogers development with nothing to show for it... and the Jets pushed out a capable QB in favor of the "better" veteran, and now both teams are worse off for it. Same thing with Zach... it was time to go.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 29, 2008 09:22PM

Great post grooves.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Phinsfan4life ()
Date: December 30, 2008 04:56AM

Living in Redskins territory...I can tell you that most of the fans here are EXTREMELY disappointed in JT and his lack of impact for the team. He gets here and almost immediately is hurt for most of the season. He was a non-factor for the Skins this year. As far as Zach, I LOVE HIM and really wish that he were still with the Phins but I also realize that Zach was aging (the migraines were a BIG problem) and that it was only a matter of time before he retired or was forced to quit the game because of the headaches.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: December 30, 2008 09:00AM

Phinsfan4life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Living in Redskins territory...I can tell you that
> most of the fans here are EXTREMELY disappointed
> in JT and his lack of impact for the team. He
> gets here and almost immediately is hurt for most
> of the season. He was a non-factor for the Skins
> this year. As far as Zach, I LOVE HIM and really
> wish that he were still with the Phins but I also
> realize that Zach was aging (the migraines were a
> BIG problem) and that it was only a matter of time
> before he retired or was forced to quit the game
> because of the headaches.


The Redskins deserve the production they got from JT. That's what you get when you decide to put the leagues premier pass rusher at left end in favor of Andre Carter who only had 4 sacks all year. They would have been better of trading for Matt Roth if that's all they were gonna do with him.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: cshashaty ()
Date: December 30, 2008 12:07PM

grooves12 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I disagree... realistically nobody thought this
> team would be legitimately in the hunt for a
> playoff spot this year.
>
> Would Zach be a better QB for the defense?? Of
> course... and IMO, that is why he needed to go.
> We've spent a lot of time developing Crowder and
> it was time to see if he could take over and be
> the dominant LB we need in the middle, or if we
> needed to start looking for his replacement in the
> offseason.
>
> IMO Crowder stepped up to the challenge a bit and
> put in his best season as a Dolphin. I don't think
> his play would have got up to the level it did, if
> he was still playing second fiddle to Zach. Is he
> Zach in his prime?? or even now?? Probably not,
> but we now we have a lot better idea of his
> skillset and potential.
>
> I see it the same way as I see the Dan Marino
> exit. Was Dan Marino better than our replacement
> at QB?? Of course... but at some point you have to
> realize they are no longer capable of being
> dominant, and when that happens you have to go
> with the younger alternative even if it means a
> slight downgrade in hopes of developing them or
> working on getting a new replacement. Look at
> Brett Favre... he hindered Aaron Rogers
> development with nothing to show for it... and the
> Jets pushed out a capable QB in favor of the
> "better" veteran, and now both teams are worse off
> for it. Same thing with Zach... it was time to go.


We are, of course, having this debate with the benefit of hindsight.

In the 3-4, Crowder and Zach would have lined up together inside (just as Saban had them play in 2005-2006 when they employed 3-4 looks). So Zach's presence wouldn't have changed the decision to move Crowder inside. As for Crowder raising his level of play with Zach gone, I reject that premise. If Crowder hadn't made the plays he was supposed to in his space, the Dolphins would've learned all they needed to about him. Even now, with a full year with Zach at his side, there's no guarantee they'll re-sign him.

Grooves, your analogy regarding the QBs left me confused. I love Danny, but he was finished in 1999 and the numbers back this up. Fiedler was a better option. It was a no-brainer. Ditto Favre-Rodgers, and this season proved the Packers were right. The Jets were, well, being the Jets when they signed him and dumped Pennington.

Zach wasn't (and isn't) finished. The numbers back this up as well. He was better than Ayodele and Torbor. Again, I understand we are looking at this in hindsight (injury situation, et. al.) but thems the facts. Again, Zach and Crowder would have been mutually exclusive.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: December 30, 2008 02:01PM

cshashaty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the 3-4, Crowder and Zach would have lined up
> together inside (just as Saban had them play in
> 2005-2006 when they employed 3-4 looks). So Zach's
> presence wouldn't have changed the decision to
> move Crowder inside. As for Crowder raising his
> level of play with Zach gone, I reject that
> premise. If Crowder hadn't made the plays he was
> supposed to in his space, the Dolphins would've
> learned all they needed to about him.

If Zach was still here, he would have worn the headset and called the plays on defense rather than Crowder. Crowder would be playing the position that Ayodele is in now. So, we really WOULDN'T have known if he could take over for Zach.

Victor

Stephen Ross addressing Tannehill's jersey #: "Hope one day we can retire this jersey."

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: Jonathan Twilley ()
Date: December 30, 2008 03:12PM

Zach wasn't here for a reason. That man gave us his body and soul thus took quite a beating over the years. His play was dropping off and I don't think he would have been as good for us, physically or schematically.

More importantly, we were creating a new culture and team personality. We needed a new identity and leadership. We got that. We won the AFC East and there is no guarantee that it would have happened had we kept either one. Where are the Cowboys and Redskins? Both were arguably better without them last year. We were better without them this year.

In addition, we are now in better shape capwise and have another high round pick, both enabling us to continue to build for the future.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: cshashaty ()
Date: December 30, 2008 04:11PM

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Zach was still here, he would have worn the
> headset and called the plays on defense rather
> than Crowder. Crowder would be playing the
> position that Ayodele is in now. So, we really
> WOULDN'T have known if he could take over for
> Zach.

Why not? The coaches know if a guy is ready or not based on what they see in practice.


Jonathan Twilley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zach wasn't here for a reason. That man gave us
> his body and soul thus took quite a beating over
> the years. His play was dropping off and I don't
> think he would have been as good for us,
> physically or schematically.

Well, the Cowboys run the same scheme and he outperformed Ayodele. So...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2008 04:15PM by cshashaty.

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Re: Zach and JT
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: December 30, 2008 04:37PM

Zach's gone and at this stage I would rather go on w/ Crowder and Ayodele. Crowder had more tackles than Zach and Ayodele did have a couple of ints'. I have the utmost respect for Zach but he is now an ex phin and probably the 3rd best phin MLB behind Offerdahl and Nick B.

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