Tim Tebow can really only run and unable to throw as well..

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you a racist i dont know but the stigma of the
> black qb being only a runner unable to throw has
> an element of racism to it. Why is it when a guy
> like steve young and fran tarkenten scramble they
> are considered dynamic and great? And even a guy
> like arron rogers everytime i see him he is moving
> in the pocket and rolling out, throwing on the run
> and he is considered right now the best in the
> game. He has a younger brother plays for
> vanderbilt who scrambles and is very mobile but
> funny he is also considered dynamic even though
> right now he cant throw very well...


I agree Reppa. I think people get confused because black QB's are generally more athletic than other and have to rely less on "the pocket", which sometimes gets them in trouble simply because they sometimes abandon it quicker than say a typical "white" QB. However, look at Warren Moon, who was amazing in the pocket. Randall Cunningham was ahead of his time, and Cam Newton seems to have all the tools in place to do it all.

One writter described RGIII to Steve Young a pretty good run qb. You do not complete 70% of your passes w/out knowing how to make your reads. However much you list the positives on RGIII some posters here will only see a black guy.

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One writter described RGIII to Steve Young a
> pretty good run qb. You do not complete 70% of
> your passes w/out knowing how to make your reads.
> However much you list the positives on RGIII some
> posters here will only see a black guy.


yeah i hope that we have evolved passed that but sometimes i have to wonder... and i know that you probably mean vince young cause steve young has superbowl rings and when to the HOF lol, would not be a bad comparison

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How is Andrew luck the best QB in the past 25 years when he is not even the best qb in this years draft!

No I mean Steve Young from BYU and the 49'ers

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No I mean Steve Young from BYU and the 49'ers


oh you are saying steve young, thats good, didnt hear that one, i heard vince young...

Let me clarify my position athletic QB's usually don't make it at the pro level. The number one job of the pro QB is to read the defense before, and during the play to what the defense is constantly doing pre-snap. Guys like Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning can do this with the best of them. These are the QB's that win consistantly in the NFL. If you can't identify what the other teams defense is before the snap how are you going to know what play to counter with or audible too? The athletic QB's to me are the one's who can't read defenses very well, and have to rely on their wheels to keep drives alive. That works well in college, but not in the pro's. I don't care what color you are if you can't read defenses, and react to what they are doing before the snap your team will most likely lose. Just watch Brady, and Rodgers, and Brees now tell me if they don't do this? Manning is the best in the league now at this, but he is injured. Are these QB's athletic yes, but in a different way. Marino was slow, but had good pocket presence, and knew how to move in the pocket. He also had a rocket arm to boot. So my point because I feel this way about the position I am now a racist. When in reality a QB's abilty too run should have no bearing on if he will be good in the pro's except to say he probably won't if he can't learn to stay in the pocket and read defenses. This is my take I await to hear everyone else's opinion as well.

ok if a qb read the defense and nothing is there what should he do? what should he do if he snaps the ball and his guard misses his assignment and there is a free blitzing line backer? What could brady do in that situation?

Lets be real here and throw out race but still mention it. Arron rogers whether you wanna call him it or not is an athletic and very mobile qb, he picks up yards all the time with his legs, but he is not black so people keep him out of that category so we will just talk about the black athletic qb. i will agree in the past they were poorly developed so black qb's did not learn progression. Also if you have the ability to run it is very difficult to be a statue in the pocket. But what if you have the ability to read a defense and beat a team with your arm when you have a clean pocket but if the play breaks down or everyone is covered you have the added ability to pick up yards with your legs. No qb snaps the ball thinking run first, unless it is a called draw and just because you can scramble does not mean you cant read a defense, sometimes running when everyone is playing man and there is no LB in the middle is the best play. Maybe im not understanding you...

Or let me ask you this, if you took brady and gave him mike vicks athleticism would he be a better or worst qb? Answer that for me please

Worse because Brady dosen't need Vicks athlectcism to be a very good QB because he already is. Where as Vick without his ability to run and break down defenses with his legs would be a liability because he cannot pass the ball consistantly from the pocket like other pro QB's. When Vick is pressured his flight or fight instincts take over and he decides ro run or in this case take flight to avoid the trouble. Where as a pro QB needs to stsay in the pocket avoid the blitzing linebacker by side stepping him then deliver the pass that is the difference. Marino, Brady, Manning all of the can do this Vick cannot on a consistant basis. That is why he is always injured. A fast QB needs to be a wide reciever at the pro level because foot speed is not needed to be a very good pro QB in the NFL period. Tebow needs to be an H-back tight end as well because he is going to be killed it's just a matter of time I'm afraid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2011 03:14PM by Finshady.

to be honest with you man i really dont know what to say to you... i have tried. I just dont think that you are ready to accept a black qb yet. I was not sure if it was racism or just programming but you have no problem with arron rogers or a tony romo, they do a lot more that just side step blitzers. They spend alot of time scrambling out of the pocket when things break down and rushing for first downs. That is natural for any color qb. For some reason when it is a black qb they have to stay in the pocket for some strange reason.

Here is a stat for you, the top rushing qb's are as follows 1)Vick, 2)Tebow, 3)Newton and guess who is #4... yes arron rogers. Yet you have no problem with him, why is that. I dont know this conversation is too frustrating for me. We will just agree to disagree. So whether you like it or not qb's are becoming more athletic, wheter they are white or black so you best just get use to it. And that standing as a statue in the pocket is dead man, this aint the 60's...

RGIII is the real deal and finshady is a racist!

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

I'd lay off on calling folks racists. That's pretty uncalled for, finshady hates cam newton for unknown reasons but I wouldn't say that makes him racist

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you a racist i dont know but the stigma of the
> black qb being only a runner unable to throw has
> an element of racism to it.

RE: Yeah the stigma is there and I agree with you about it. I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about this very thing. Black QB's have historically been running QB's and usually not very sucessful except for a season here and season there. I don't think race has anything to do with it though...just an observation.

Why is it when a guy
> like steve young and fran tarkenten scramble they
> are considered dynamic and great?

RE: Well Young won a superbowl and was on one of the two darling teams...Young was good but not great, but was clearly very good, most of his time with the 49ers, prior to that he stunk. Tarkington re-wrote the record books with his arm and went to what four superbowls...that's a great player, just like Marino was...even though he couldn't run at all...player busts in the hall of fame also have quite a bit to do with it.

And even a guy
> like arron rogers everytime i see him he is moving
> in the pocket and rolling out, throwing on the run
> and he is considered right now the best in the
> game. He has a younger brother plays for
> vanderbilt who scrambles and is very mobile but
> funny he is also considered dynamic even though
> right now he cant throw very well...

RE: Mobility is an added demension but it's not required for greatness...How many highly mobile white QB's have won the superbowl?, how many black QB's that were runners?...then, how many immobile QB's have won of either race?

The sucessful guy's who can't run but throw well, greatly outnumber the sucessful mobile guy's.

For the record, I'll be happy if we get Luck, Jones, Griffin, Barkley or Foles...any of them...

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to be honest with you man i really dont know what
> to say to you... i have tried. I just dont think
> that you are ready to accept a black qb yet. I
> was not sure if it was racism or just programming
> but you have no problem with arron rogers or a
> tony romo, they do a lot more that just side step
> blitzers. They spend alot of time scrambling out
> of the pocket when things break down and rushing
> for first downs. That is natural for any color
> qb. For some reason when it is a black qb they
> have to stay in the pocket for some strange
> reason.
>
> Here is a stat for you, the top rushing qb's are
> as follows 1)Vick, 2)Tebow, 3)Newton and guess who
> is #4... yes arron rogers. Yet you have no
> problem with him, why is that. I dont know this
> conversation is too frustrating for me. We will
> just agree to disagree. So whether you like it or
> not qb's are becoming more athletic, wheter they
> are white or black so you best just get use to it.
> And that standing as a statue in the pocket is
> dead man, this aint the 60's...


RE: Reppa, what he's getting at IMHO, is this, an NFL QB's PRIMARY job is to throw the ball...period. It is not to run it, that's why they have running backs. Most Mobile QB's historically speaking were not very good at throwing the ball. This is changing recently buy guy's like Vick, Culpepper, McNabb, etc were not great passers and they were less sucessful in the NFL because of that fact. Had they been able to pass better and stay in the pocket in order to throw, they likely would have been better players.You two are closer to an agreement than either of you realize on this.

Running adds another element to a QB's game but it should be a last resort and it should take a back seat to other skills and abilities. He's saying that ALL QB's should stay in the pocket and throw as a first choice...and based upon history I'd agree with that because history says you will be more effective and sucessful if you do. White, Black, Yellow, Red, or other color.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd lay off on calling folks racists. That's
> pretty uncalled for, finshady hates cam newton for
> unknown reasons but I wouldn't say that makes him
> racist


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Exactly. He says he hates Cam Newton and RGIII, yet he gives no reason why.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Why is there such a great debate regarding black qb's. McNabb, Vick and Culpepper all have had more success in the NFL than guys like Kyle Boller, Matt Leinart, Alex Smith, Losman, Harrington etc all 1st round picks. Some fans like to nick pick these guys but many more white qbs have done less than these guys.

I don't like Newton because of of the Auburn situation, and the fact that they paid his father for him to enroll in school so that they could win a championship. In essance his father pimped him to the highest bidder, and those dumb redneck Auburn fans would sell their souls to the devil in order to win. I have said this in other posts. I don't like Scam because he is what's wrong with college football, and the shady business that goes on behind the scenes. If Newton got kicked out of Florida that tells me all I need to know about how much of a blind eye Auburn turned just to let him go to school their. I graduated from a top flight college with a degree that I earned no one gave my daddy a sack load of money for me to go there because I could play QB. That is why I don't like Newton, Auburn or their stupid redneck win at any cost damn the rules fans. It has nothing to with race it has to do with the integrity of college, and the fact some rules are unbreakable unless your Auburn, and your boosters have plenty of money. By the way Newton threw 4 picks today so he is regressing as the season goes on just like I said he would. Come on someone give me credit for that his team is 2-8 wow can you say rookie of the year NOT.

actually i bet he still wins rookie of the year. his numbers are still good and everyone knows that rookie qbs make mistakes. dalton threw 3 picks today. bradford is in his second year and he struggling.

RGIII threw for 479 yards, 4 TD's and *ZERO* INT's.


He completes almost 75% of his passes. The dude is the real deal.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

RGIII also had 1 td called back on a penalty and another td dropped. I doubt if a certain poster has ever seen RGIII play.

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RGIII also had 1 td called back on a penalty and
> another td dropped. I doubt if a certain poster
> has ever seen RGIII play.


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
No, Im positive that person hasnt seen him. All they know is RGIII is black, and their mind is made up.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RE: Reppa, what he's getting at IMHO, is this, an
> NFL QB's PRIMARY job is to throw the
> ball...period. It is not to run it, that's why
> they have running backs.

No the qb's primary job is the put his team in the best position to win. Say what you want about vick but a guy that was not a polished qb and could not read defenses and just playing on insticts was the FIRST person to go into the tundra of lambo field and beat the pack in the playoffs... No one had done that going back to the 60's. Say what you want about vince young his record in the NFL is 30-17 and vick in atlanta was 25-15. These are outstanding records so tell me why they are hated on like they cant play the position? They win that is the job of the qb last time i checked. Whos to say what the "proper" way to play the position. Just because others cant do what they do they have to critisize. If Andy dalton had the athleticism of these guys they might have won cause he could have scrambled into the endzone or did a better job of scrambling to buy time for his recievers to get open. The fact is a mobile qb brings an added dimension a stationary qb does not have i dont see how people cant see the huge advantage in that, they have an arm too so they can pass aswell. I dont see the disagreement.


Tell me why the NFL is soooo special. You look at college and the athletic qb is heavily represented, now why is that not reflected in the NFL and still is not to the extent that it should. This style does not win SB only because what is the ratio

oh by the way young first three years 30-17 arron rogers 27-21... there is no right way to win. And rogers packers team was waayyy better than youngs texans teams. Brett just took them to the NFL championship before rogers took over so he had all the pieces in place.

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is there such a great debate regarding black
> qb's. McNabb, Vick and Culpepper all have had more
> success in the NFL than guys like Kyle Boller,
> Matt Leinart, Alex Smith, Losman, Harrington etc
> all 1st round picks. Some fans like to nick pick
> these guys but many more white qbs have done less
> than these guys.


RE: Very, very, true.

Reppa you are dead wrong because you can't see the forest full of trees ahead of you. To compare I am going to kill myself Vince Young bcause I got benched to A super bowl winning QB blows your whole argument. Why don't teams just run the wisbone, or the option how about it? what's the point of having a Marino tear up a secondary without running for a single 1st down how boring right WTF? You want to tell me that watching Manning or Brady destroy a defense without running for 1 yard isn't good football then I must be wrong. The QB's job is to be the field general pass the ball handle the offense, and run the team when under center. His job title is not to run at the 1st sign of trouble or a pass rush that gets to close. You can avoid pressure by side stepping a moving in the pocket without running. It is a learned skill that the great ones have. The mediocre ones don't obviously. So I would rather have Marino than Vick, and my team will beat your team most Sunday's if everything else is equal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2011 02:54AM by Finshady.

what super bowl winning qb did vince young get benched for?

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ken Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > RE: Reppa, what he's getting at IMHO, is this,
> an
> > NFL QB's PRIMARY job is to throw the
> > ball...period. It is not to run it, that's why
> > they have running backs.
>
> No the qb's primary job is the put his team in the
> best position to win.

RE: No, thats the coaches job. A QB gets paid to throw the ball and move the team. Winning is simply a by-product of good play...as a team.

Say what you want about
> vick but a guy that was not a polished qb and
> could not read defenses and just playing on
> insticts was the FIRST person to go into the
> tundra of lambo field and beat the pack in the
> playoffs... No one had done that going back to the
> 60's.

RE: OK, and?

Say what you want about vince young his
> record in the NFL is 30-17 and vick in atlanta was
> 25-15. These are outstanding records so tell me
> why they are hated on like they cant play the
> position?

RE: Because they are not very good when it comes to passing...it's not that difficult.

They win that is the job of the qb last
> time i checked.

Yeah, David Woodley won too and went to a superbowl...however, he stunk.

Whos to say what the "proper" way
> to play the position.

RE: There is no proper way to play the position...there is simply a way thats proven to be more effective than the other...especially when you are talking long term.

Just because others cant do
> what they do they have to critisize.

RE: Sure thats the way of everything in life.

If Andy
> dalton had the athleticism of these guys they
> might have won cause he could have scrambled into
> the endzone or did a better job of scrambling to
> buy time for his recievers to get open.

RE: And if any of the mobile guys you mentioned had been better passers they might have done a better job and been even better than their current records indicate.

The fact
> is a mobile qb brings an added dimension a
> stationary qb does not have i dont see how people
> cant see the huge advantage in that, they have an
> arm too so they can pass aswell. I dont see the
> disagreement.

RE: Yes, it does, absolutely add another dimension. It can also be an advantage and yes they do have an arm so they can throw...they just usually don't do it was well as those players that work at it more because they can't run.
>
>
> Tell me why the NFL is soooo special. You look at
> college and the athletic qb is heavily
> represented, now why is that not reflected in the
> NFL and still is not to the extent that it should.
> This style does not win SB only because what is
> the ratio

RE: OK, simply, in the NFL even the bad players are strong, fast and well, good...there are many, many, more players in college that are poor. The NFL game is also much more focused, disciplined, better schemed, level, and competitive. To stand out in the NFL athlectically like Vick, Newton, Young, Tarkington, or Cunningham you have to be exceptional...and as has been said before, they also have shorter careers (usually) because of increased injuries.

But, to stand out as a QB over the long term you (usually) have to be exeptional at passing the football...like Marino, Brady, P. Manning, Moon, Unitas, Staubach, Montana.

Right on Ken finally a sense of reason on this board. Running QB's don't last long in this league. just ask yourself this question how come the one's who don't run play longer, and normally go on to have better careers. That is all how many running QB's are in the HOF besides Tarkenton?

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well i am happy you are sticking to your guns man.
> But just because griffin is an incredible athlete
> with world class speed does not mean he cant pass.
> They just played the #5 team in the nation
> (oklahoma) big stage and griffin passes for 479
> yards 4 td 0 int (and one of them was a 40 throw-
> game winner with 8 seconds left in the game)... um
> last time i checked those are bonafied passing
> numbers, and FYI he has over 300 more total
> passing yards on the year that both luck and
> barkley. So yes he can run but he is also one of
> the top 3 "PASSING" qb in the nation, oh by the
> way he just beat and outplayed landry jones head
> to head. im just saying.





I hear ya, I just think , especially in the NFL when the game is so quick, you have to go with your instincts. I believe he is instinctively a Run first time back. Guess Time will tell.

But when you have a Gimp like Marino that can barely walk , let alone Run, You KNOW that man is going to develop a quick release and a dart.

I'm liking Moore though, He is Mobile but saves it for last measure.

What does it matter what your color is as long as you can play the position. I don't like QB's that don't stay in the pocket to complete passes because they can move there teams at times, but when they absolutely have no where to run and have to stay in the pocket and complete passes most times they can't. At the next level the coaches will take a QB that ran the spread in college, and make him transition to the pro game like Alex Smith of the 49ers. How long did it take Smith to become half way decent? The kid at Kansas State this year good player not pro material as a QB. Eric Crouch won a national champinship at Nebraska never even made a practice squad in the pro's. So their some merit to my argument. The black QB's do seem to run more, and to me it is a hindrence at the next level. Does that mean they can't play no, but it means they have to re-trained in the pro's sometimes on how to stay in the pocket and complete passes. We don't need a QB who has to learn on the job as I would rather have one that can already function in a pro offense that he ran in college. This team does not have 2 years to develop a franchise QB. Taking a kid that played in the spread or ran alot in college means a bigger learning curve in the pro's. This team does not need that. Nor can we wait for that player to develop at the next level.