This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel.
They replaced Zack thomas when he had a bit of juice in the tank.......why? They forced marino out....Why? Because they tell us sorry, its a BUISNESS. They don't give a shit about how we feel. In a way thats a good thing I suppose. But then they can't tell us we can't tell them we are not happy when this Buisness we have paid for , Sucks. I eat in a resturant and it takes 45 minutes for the food to come out and its cold, and I have to pay Top $$$$, They are going to hear me. if I'm rude to someone in my Job or don't do what I need to do , My supervisior would hear it. Can't have it both ways. AND none of us make a few Million a year on top of that. This isn't a fragile rookie. Sink or swim at this point M fer. They choose Henne. Die with him as well. I'm so Tired of Losing and all the B.S. Treat the Posistion with some goddamn respect already!!
It IS a business, but that business relies on fans and ticket sales! If you want loyal fans (the fans that buy tickets!!), you need to cultivate a culture. Part of that is celebrating players that have been a key part of your franchise, not kicking them to the curb. Shula understood that, but JJ, Wanny, and Parcells did NOT.
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> montequi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It IS a business, but that business relies on
> fans
> > and ticket sales! If you want loyal fans (the
> > fans that buy tickets!!), you need to cultivate
> a
> > culture. Part of that is celebrating players
> that
> > have been a key part of your franchise, not
> > kicking them to the curb. Shula understood
> that,
> > but JJ, Wanny, and Parcells did NOT.
>
>
> You want to sell tickets and engender fan
> loyalty...win games. Its that simple.
>
> All the rest is fluff that will take care of its
> self if you are winning consistently.
>
> It is a business and winning is all that matters.
> Even Shula knew that which is why he had NO
> problems kicking older players to the curb when
> younger, better options came along. Suggesting
> that he held onto older, injured players out of
> loyalty isn't the case.
Shula wouldn't have kicked Marino or Thomas out the way our organization did. Griese and Csonka retired as Phins for a reason!
BTW: You sound like MikeO with the "winning" comment. Yes, winning attracts fans, but most of those are fair-weather fans. Look at the Packers and Giants. Those franchises suffered through many losing seasons but didn't lose their fan base. As far as I've heard, both those franchises are financially healthy. They come from 2 completely different markets (small and large), but they still have a heavy following. Why don't we?? Because we don't honor the past anymore.
dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kelreign Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To everyone that keeps saying that Orten sucks,
> I
> > need you to explain why. How does he suck. All
> I
> > saw was him completing passes year after year
> > after year. He threw 20 TDS and 9 INTs last
> year,
> > compared to Chad's 15 TDS and 19 INTs right?
> Just
> > checking.
> >
> > I am not hating on Henne, but I am showing some
> > support for bringing in Orten. I don't think a
> > 2nd round pick is too much.
> >
>
> Pro Football Focus has graded Henne as the #17 QB
> in the league each of the last 2 seasons. They've
> graded Orton as #21 each of those two seasons.
> Football Outsiders also graded Henne as better
> than Orton in 2010. In ESPN's new Total QB Rating,
> Henne ranked in the "below average" category, with
> guys like Carson Palmer and Jay Cutler. Orton
> ranked in the next higher category, which was
> "about average." Orton is awful on 3rd down,
> completing only half of his passes, with a passer
> rating of 58.0. He's particularly bad on 3rd and
> medium (which is defined as 3-7 yards to go),
> where he has a passer rating of 45.8. He is
> horrendous when pressured, completing just 18 of
> 59 pass attempts for a passer rating of 12.2.
>
> So, does a guy who is "about average", or is the
> 21st best QB in the league, or is awful on 3rd
> down, or is awful when pressured, sound like the
> kind of guy to give up a 2nd rd pick for, and then
> sign him to a 5 year, $60M contract?
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Mark, I love you bro...
but, if PFF ranks Henne amongst the top 30 QB's then I wont ever, ever..pay them any of my money and their editors and journalists need to be fired.
It takes only a part time fan to realize Chad Henne is terrible.
montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Look at the Packers
> and Giants. Those franchises suffered through
> many losing seasons but didn't lose their fan
> base. As far as I've heard, both those franchises
> are financially healthy. They come from 2
> completely different markets (small and large),
> but they still have a heavy following. Why don't
> we?? Because we don't honor the past anymore.
I agree that it is a problem that we dont honor the past like we use to... But I dont beleive that is the major problem...
But I am local, and this is one of the most transient towns you can find. Everyone you meet is from someplace else or has roots someplace else. THere is alot to do in southflorida, from September to January. Unlike Green bay, or other freezing spots. If you could go sailfishing in Novemebr in green bay with women in skimpy bikinis and a beautiful blue ocean, they would probably sell less football tickets...lol
ALthough also,We have not been a great franchise the last decade or so. Both those places you compared have won SUperbowls at least this millenium.
Our franchise was built on SHula and Marino and we lost them both within a few years, and have never found our way back to the glory days since or that identity and toughness we had during those days
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2011 08:59AM by Crowder52.
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Show me the Dolphin Star that Shula catered to as
> he was approaching the age of 40.
The only one who comes close would be Earl Morrall, who stayed the roster four more ears after the 72 season, when he was old already!
Shula got rid of Yepremian, a very reliable kicker (when he wasn't trying to pass the ball, that is) to go with a "younger" kicker in Von Shaumann (who incidentally, SUCKED). He also got rid of the captain of the defense, Bob Matheson when he thought he was too old to produce. They NAMED the 53 Defense after Matheson's jersey number, but when he reached his mid 30s Shula told him it was time to hang up that #53 jersey. I'm sure there are more examples too, but yes Shula did get rid of older players he thought weren't producing.
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------
>
> I'm not sure Earl Morral disproves my point. He
> was a back up player.
>
Not only was he a backup player, but he was team MVP during 1972, for salvaging the undefeated season and posting most of the victories that year, they could STILL have him on the roster today at the age of 77 and I wouldn't be upset. He earned it,!
PFF is known for having a faulty qb rating system. It needs upgraded as much as the nfls efficiency rating which is being done as we speak.
I have heard several people in the business ssay the pff is great for most other positions but lacking big time for qbs....the whole Henne ranked 17th should prove that.
montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW: You sound like MikeO with the "winning"
> comment. Yes, winning attracts fans, but most of
> those are fair-weather fans. Look at the Packers
> and Giants. Those franchises suffered through
> many losing seasons but didn't lose their fan
> base. As far as I've heard, both those franchises
> are financially healthy. They come from 2
> completely different markets (small and large),
> but they still have a heavy following. Why don't
> we?? Because we don't honor the past anymore.
Are you really using the Packers as an example in your argument after the way they forced Favre out?
eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PFF is known for having a faulty qb rating system.
> It needs upgraded as much as the nfls efficiency
> rating which is being done as we speak.
>
> I have heard several people in the business ssay
> the pff is great for most other positions but
> lacking big time for qbs....the whole Henne ranked
> 17th should prove that.
Their system is very simple. They assign a grade of -2.0 to +2.0 to each player on each play. The vast majority of plays are scored from -0.5 to +0.5. It accounts for things like dropped passes, passes thrown away to avoid a sack, running ability, penalties, etc. Those are some of the same things the new ESPN system is incorporating. Their system is not nearly as flawed as the official "passer rating."
Football Outsiders ranked Henne 18th. So, their system must be terribly flawed, too.
It is amazing to me how much blame has been leveled at Henne. Did anyone pay attention to how many times we called plays with 2 receivers in the pattern? Or did anyone pay attention when Ron Jaworski broke down the design of our passing plays, and said "I don't understand what Dan Henning is trying to accomplish?" Did anyone notice the collapse of the o-line and the running game? Which Dan Henning's Paul Brown offense is predicated on?
From pro football focus.
2009
Chad Henne +22.7
Jake Long +28.7
Justin Smiley +8.0
Jake Grove +20.5
Nate Garner +4.9
Donald Thomas 0.0
Vernon Carey +19.1
Ronnie Brown +4.3
Ricky Williams +2.4
Lousaka Polite +11.0
2010
Chad Henne +24.8
Jake Long +24.3
Richie Incognito +4.1
Joe Berger +1.3
John Jerry -7.7
Pat Mcquistan -13.4
Vernon Carey -1.0
Ronnie Brown +2.4
Ricky Williams -3.5
Lousaka Polite -9.5
It all starts up front with the line, and the running game. Look at the collapse in those two areas.
Would any of the top 15-20 QB's in this league have let their TE cuss them out on the field, in the middle of a game....like Fasano did Henne last year?
No.
Would any of those same QB's would have let his WR make a fool out of him in the middle of the game like Brandon Marshall did to Henne last season?
No.
And here is where the problem lies. Henne has no fire, leadership skills, or intangibles.
Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Answer me this,
>
> Would any of the top 15-20 QB's in this league
> have let their TE cuss them out on the field, in
> the middle of a game....like Fasano did Henne last
> year?
>
> No.
>
> Would any of those same QB's would have let his WR
> make a fool out of him in the middle of the game
> like Brandon Marshall did to Henne last season?
>
> No.
>
>
>
> And here is where the problem lies. Henne has no
> fire, leadership skills, or intangibles.
You hit it on the head. That's the issue with Henne. He's got a strong arm and can follow the playbook, but he's NOT a leader.
Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Answer me this,
>
> Would any of the top 15-20 QB's in this league
> have let their TE cuss them out on the field, in
> the middle of a game....like Fasano did Henne last
> year?
>
> No.
>
> Would any of those same QB's would have let his WR
> make a fool out of him in the middle of the game
> like Brandon Marshall did to Henne last season?
>
> No.
>
>
>
> And here is where the problem lies. Henne has no
> fire, leadership skills, or intangibles.
Excellent points. He doesn't deserve any respect at this point. I heard he rasies his hand and asks permission to go Pee at practice at well.
berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the only proof needed was when with the game on
> the line he audibled to a run play on 3d and 8 and
> justified it with "they were playing pass"
>
> from what I hear he is checking down to RBs even
> in practice right now
That's not what happened. Henne has not been allowed to audible in Henning's system. On 3rd and 8, Dan Henning called a "check with me" play. They call 2 plays in the huddle, a run and a pass. If the defense is playing pass, you go with the run. There was no audible. And since it's 3rd and 8, you know the defense is going to be playing pass. So, why make that play call? That is Henne executing exactly what the coaches asked him to do. And when you are a young QB, with Chad Pennington over your shoulder, you do what the coaches ask you to do, or else you get benched. The problem with that play was not the execution, it was the ultra conservative playcall. And out of the season, it's one of the truly great examples of how Henning did Henne no favors.
Remember, these guys get graded by the coaches on what they do, not the results. We heard of Henne earning "minuses" for TD passes because they were on a guy's wrong shoulder. In the Bears game, Thigpen hit a big play down the sideline to Hartline. He earned a minus from the coaches because the safety was double covering the receiver, and Thigpen was supposed to throw it elsewhere. You cannot fault a guy for executing exactly what the coaches wanted.
TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
> Excellent points. He doesn't deserve any respect
> at this point.
And who was it that led more offseason workouts for his team any other team had during the lockout? And who was that earning universal praise from his teammates, including Fasano and Marshall, for being the leader this offseason?
You dont always have to lead with fire, somtimes composure and strategy is just as effective. Henne has done the right things this offseason, now he must lead his teammates through some tough games, Come from behind, and lower a shoulder and and block for a WR or RB on a screen or end around. Take a shot and bounce back into the face of the guy that laid him out, and ask him if that is all he has got...
Trust me guys I could spend a month with Henne and have him ready to lead this team through Hell carrying gas cans(A.West) and make sure he does everyone of those things in the first couple of games... Henne can be tought to lead his team... When the season starts we are gonna find out what he has got in week 1 on Monday night for everybody to see in front of the Patriots... SO I suggest we all get behind him now, he has a huge challenge in front of him.
AS i said before people follow strength and courage, and we all have those charecteristics within. I know the guy wants it, he just has to be guided through the process a bit, and hopefully Daboll and Sparano are those guys....
For example when Sparano stood up for Henne and said it made him sick the fans booed and chanted for Orton... That is leaderships from Sparano, these boos from Home can galvanize these guys together... People find inspiration in the strangest of places some times... Believe in your team! GOing the other way does nothing for you or us..
TheFutt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like how some of you think that you "pay their
> salaries".
>
> Ok, you bought a logo shirt, hat, ticket, and a
> hot dog. Congratulations, you contributed to
> $0.03 to each players salary.
LOL. You probably critiqued the Goverment a bunch of times by stating.....Hey I'm a TaxPayer! Hipocrite.