TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dolphaholic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh no Treasure, please explain how my
> comparison
> > is "silly", and if the draft and free agency
> rules
> > break any kind of labor laws, that would be
> > considered illegal, not on the same par with
> > murder/rape/dealing drugs, but illegal none the
> > less. Name one other industry in the country
> other
> > then pro sports that holds a draft?
>
>
>
> So Mr Ross has to be concerned about Jail Time?


How do you know when you've stumped someone and they have no credible response to your question? They try to connect 2 dots a million miles apart and make you look stupid.

Thank you Crowder, my whole point is that people keep acting like the owners can do whatever they want because they own the teams, in reality they have to have the players (current group or replacements) collectively agree to whatever rules they try to impose. Which puts us back at square one.

dolphaholic Wrote:
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in reality they
> have to have the players (current group or
> replacements) collectively agree to whatever rules
> they try to impose. Which puts us back at square
> one.

That is not completely true, Dolphaholic, they could start a season, and play without a collective agreement, but there would be no draft, and all players would be free agents or looked at as free agents by theory. They would have the right to choose to work for whatever team they want. THere would be no salary cap or salary minimum. I dont think it would be good for anybody, but it would not be impossible.. De Smith and NFLPA in theory are going for exactly that, that is the argument, they want the NFL to operate with a complete free market, which is what I described. I just believe a free market, would probably mean the NFLPA as a whole will get much less of the pie.
Also the hammer swings both ways, the players can also be sued if they are collective working together, to manipulate management...

When I originally predicted, weeks ago, that the owners would knuckle under, it was on this simple basis which Ghotirule has stated long hand above. The players made an offer that was a "give-back" offer that gave themless than what they, the players, had in the last contract but not as much "give-back" as the owners wanted.

So, if the positions are fixed at that point, then you ask yourself who is willing to throw away the season if they don't get what they want.

That boils down to are the players willing to forego the season TO KEEP FROM GIVING BACK EVEN MORE?

or.................are the owners willing to forego the season BECAUSE, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE BEEN OFFERED MORE THAN THEY WERE GETTING UNDER THE OLD CONTRACT, THEY ARE NOT GETTING EVEN MORE ABOVE AND BEYOND THE INCREASE THEY GOT?


Of those two, I believe 1) the players would be ready to fight and 2) the owners are not going to suffer losses just because they don't figure the players have given enough concessions.

Regardless how much the owners feel they can justify demands for more concessions, the fact remains that they would be killing the golden goose because the players refused to bend over even more.

Few smart businessmen leave all the money on the table because they can't get more than what is offered.

Chyren I respectful disagree, because the majority of players are hurt by this lockout but have nothing really to gain. I believe many agents of not top paid players are telling them, this NFLPA is not really looking out for you. They dont make alot of money compared to the other guys who's names are on the fight card...SO they just want their game check, they probably feel Tom Brady and Drew Brees are overpaid anyways, and they dont want to give up their 40 thousand dollar game check so, Manning,Brees, Brady, etc, dont get their 2 million dollar game checks not increased.
This fight and Tactic of the NFLPA benefits mainly the elite, so that is why it will crumble. If the owners offer raises the minimum salary signifigantly in the next offer, they will check mate and ensure the destruction of the NFLPA unity in a flash...

Well, we shall see.

Ultimately, I think the owners will make concession, like a higher minimum salary, and maybe a few extra roster spots, a better veteran money and reduced rookie money, but the players will not recieve 50 cents on every dollar gross.. They cant it doesnt make sense with the cost and debts involved on the other side. The players will gain in postions that a majority of them want, as far as healthcare, more time off, not the feared Olympic drug testing policy, and the above mentioned... The owners will recieve a larger piece of the pie, and so will veterans and the avg players. The losers will be the 1st rd rookies and the big money guys. You will not see those huge salaries continue to climb every year like they have..Every contract always having to surpass the last at that postion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 09:47AM by Crowder52.

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > dolphaholic Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Oh no Treasure, please explain how my
> > > comparison
> > > > is "silly", and if the draft and free
> agency
> > > rules
> > > > break any kind of labor laws, that would be
> > > > considered illegal, >
> >
>
>
> How do you know when you've stumped someone and
> > they have no credible response to your
> question?
> > They try to connect 2 dots a million miles
> apart
> > and make you look stupid.
>
>
>
> Ahhhhhhhhh good. So you figured out on your own
> why it was such a silly comparision. Good on ya!

Touche, we're probably both a little guilty of that. Still haven't answered my question of why the comparisons so silly though?

Do You really wabnt to compare Posistions such as Lawyers and Doctors to a professional Athlete? do I really need to sit here and spell out the differences that make this such a dumb silly comparision?

Last time I checked There weren't any St Jude Booster clubs all sitting around hoping a certain Doctor will go there and hoping another hospital would screw up a heart transplant because they were a confernce enemy.

And the really best lawyers just become super agents that are just out for themselves and will kill the sport and the teams if it gets in there way.

That all said.........dumb isn't the word for the silly comparision. Congrats for making me come up with this equally dumb retort though.

I still don't get your point. I know federal agents that take jobs and are assigned to cities anywhere in the 50 states. Sometimes abroad. It part of the job and they know that full well going in. And they make in 10-20 yrs what some NFL players make in a year. Again whats your point? The only thing you have dummied down is your reputation .

I guess the only point i'm trying to make is that you're a moron, even though I didn't need it.....thanks for the help

dolphaholic Wrote:
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> I guess the only point i'm trying to make is that
> you're a moron, even though I didn't need
> it.....thanks for the help

To quote YOU: How do you know when you've stumped someone and
> > they have no credible response to your
> question?
> > They call you a moron and runaway. Don't be so pissed off when you make no sense and people call you on it. Buh-bye.

dolphaholic Wrote:
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> OK Treasure, i'll dummy it down for you, do
> garbage men get drafted, welders, grass cutters,
> burger flippers, security guards, delivery men?
> Does anybody else, in any other industry have to
> get drafted and told what city they have to go
> live in to enter a chosen field? You know why they
> don't?..........because it's ILLEGAL!
>
> And by the way, I figured i'd remind you of why I
> had to make my "silly" comparison in the first
> place
>
> TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
>
> > BEEP BEEP BEEP! Careful Phins2 is backing
> > up...............
> >
> > I never said they should start over with just
> > college players. I said a 20 round draft. ALL
> > current players contracts are dismissed and
> > disolved. They can enter the new draft and get
> > paid what the owners think they are worth.
> THATS
> > how most buisness's are run.>
>
> Silly me for trying to point out that "thats NOT
> how most buisness's are run"


If this wasn't a clear explanation on my point, then it really can only lead to one conclusion and it's pointless to keep arguing with you........buh-bye

Those blinders are making reading comprehension a rough concept for you Crowder, you care to show me where I said the draft is a bad deal for the players? All I was disputing was that the draft was a buisness owners right because he owns the team.
So are you telling me you agree with Treasure that the owners could rip up the current contracts and hold a 20 rnd draft?

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> >
> > Very Well said. I agree 100%. Forcing an owner
> to
> > pay some Rookie $40 million + without ever
> seeing
> > him on the field is Completely unfair and needs
> to
> > stop.
>
>
> Same question to you then TCPF... Who is it that
> you imagine was forcing the owners to pay those
> salaries?
>
>
> > ANYTHING garanteed needs to stop. PLAY and
> > get paid. Get what you Pay for. Thats anyone's
> > right when you are paying for something.
>
>
> And what are the rights of the person selling his
> product/services? NOTHING. NADA. ZERO. DOUGHNUTS.



Since when does a person looking for a Job get to impose anything including rights? The owners have a choice, if they wish to draft players and be competive , they have Super Agents bending them over. You got Teams like the raiders screwed for believing they had a Prospect in a player like Jarmarcus Russell.$45-50 million later they have nothing. Just because you have a god given talent does not make you entitled to anything.

It is not impossible for a new group representing college players who are not yet Profesional to initiate a possible future agreement. Just like when the owners got replacement players to play when the Nflpa went on strike.... Everything is plausible in labor battles as long as certain criteria and rules are followed

Actually a splinter group of profesionals from Canada or Arena or even ex NFLPA members could organize unionize and negotiate with the owners to fullfill a collective players agreement...