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          I'll man up
Miami Dolphins Civilized Discussion :  Phins.com Phorums The fastest message board... ever.
This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
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I'll man up
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:10AM

After reviewing the tape of the MNF game, I've got to man up and say that the Pennington I saw in that game was nothing like the one I saw against Atlanta.

If Chad plays like he played against Indy, there is nothing to prevent our team from going back to the playoffs and winning it all.

So, as much as I criticized him against Atlanta, I've got to man up and tip my hat to him this week.

That being said, to RW13 and all of those persons defending Ted Ginn on the grounds that if you take away the catches he made we would have not made crucial 3rd downs, I have something to add.

Keep in mind that I don't think Ted Ginn is alone in this new modern era of receivers who think that they only have to catch a fair number of balls.

In the 70's through 90's, receivers caught all catchable balls and proved their excellence by making the difficult circus catches.

Nowadays (and RW13 you proved it by your lowered expectations) we judge a receiver by the number of ordinary catches he makes.

I looked at the tape of Ginn's third down catches his defenders point to. There was nothing spectacular about those catches. They were ordinary balls thrown right into his hand with no defender within a foot of him. HE'S SUPPOSED TO MAKE THOSE CATCHES. We are supposed to praise him? Obviously, any other receiver replacing him would have made the catches but more importantly, why the hell should he get any slack for making the catches he's supposed to?

And for the person who said that it was a bad pass, ARE YOU KIDDING? If the ball had been any lower it would have been knocked down or intercepted. If the ball had been any higher, it would have been uncatchable. That was a great pass from Pennington.

But like I said, Ginn is not the only receiver in the NFL that plays like he is only expected to catch 'A FAIR NUMBER OF" the catchable balls, not ALL OF THEM.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MiamiThunder ()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:33AM

It's called COMPLETE lack of defense, and lack of carring, i believe that Sparano has this team thinking so much "smart football" and not turning the ball over that it created a lack of "flow" that should have been a natural 2 minute execution.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: JC ()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:45AM

ChyrenB,

First off, kudos for "Manning" up. Ouch, bad pun.

you make some good points here. I think a lot of the (over)emphasis on stats and number of catches, etc. gets its roots in the available of statistics nowadays compared to the 1990s and earlier.

Add onto that the proliferation of fantasy football teams and their popularity. I'm thoroughly convinced that a substantial percentage of people who call themselves fans of professional football are actually more concerned with the statistics of their favorite players. I'm not looping anyone specific into that category, but I do feel it's the case for a lot of people.

Granted, that I myself pointed to Pennington's pass completion ratio in one of my previous posts praising his play during the game (but I only did it once, okay?) and of course statistics have their place in every discussion. I just think that they are over-emphasized way too often.

There are receptions that go for yards, there are catches that go for first downs, and there are clutch plays. That pass to Ginn was on target exactly as you mentioned. As much as I hate to play coulda/woulda/shoulda the thoughts quickly went through my mind on which former Phins receivers would have made that catch: Chambers, Gadsden, Hardy, Mandich, Warfield. I don't think Ginn sucks but DAMN I wish he would have made that catch happen.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MiamiThunder ()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:47AM

He doesnt suck, but he isnt a Fitzgerarld, or Calvin Johnson, and he will never become one of them, therefore he will never be a elite number one. Your just a fan blinded by your team to think that he will be.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: JC ()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:53AM

MiamiThunder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He doesnt suck, but he isnt a Fitzgerarld, or
> Calvin Johnson, and he will never become one of
> them, therefore he will never be a elite number
> one. Your just a fan blinded by your team to think
> that he will be.

Where did I imply that I think that?

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: September 23, 2009 10:03AM


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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: Miami Reppa ()
Date: September 23, 2009 11:18AM

No need to man up chyren b... i dont think that there is a single player on offense that can be blamed for that loss, and yes that does include ted ginn. I have trashed him since we got him but he should not have been in the position to have to go upstairs and win a game for us.

I place that loss 90% on dolphin DC Paul Pasqualoni and 10% on poor tackling... If I were his boss that preformance alone and I would be looking for his replacement.

Numbers

manning 14 completions for 303 yards- that is 22 yards per completion (the average I dont know but I am sure it is between 6-12)

Rushing: 10 attempts for 58 yards (5.8yards per carry)

They had 27 points and 364 yards on only 34 plays!!! the average is about 65-70, so if they had a normal amout of plays the would have doubled there stats so 54 points and 730 yards of only offense that is without special teams yardage. That is college numbers.

Inexcusable- i think someone has to go...

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MiamiThunder ()
Date: September 23, 2009 11:40AM

Yeah Wilson, Crowder, Porter, Ayodell. trade porter and ayodell, and crowder drop wilson no one will trade for him. We could get a second 3rd and fourth round for all three of em!!!

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MikeO ()
Date: September 23, 2009 12:22PM

who the hell is gonna give up draft picks for our garbage on defense??

Who in their right mind would trade for Porter or Ayodell at this stage in their career? Just wait till their cut and sign them for the vet minimum and give up nothing. Crowder has zero trade value cause he isn't any good and just signed a new deal last year.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MiamiThunder ()
Date: September 23, 2009 12:40PM

Whoever needs a so called starter. You know the Pat's they always take old vets.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: DVDon ()
Date: September 23, 2009 01:19PM

All that said you have to wonder if Ginn had caught that pass for a touchdown would we have won the game? Manning and the Dolt offence scored two touchdowns in a combined 44 seconds in this game. The way the middle of our defense played I think they could have scored again to win anyway.

As for the missed interception. Re-watching the game Wayne made a great move going from receiver to defender to prevent that interception. Our secondary did a decent job on the outside I mean Wayne didn't put up great numbers. It was the middle of our defense that provided all of the points for the Dolts.

Don't know who said it but if we play everyone else the way we played this game we're going to win. We're not going to face Manning every week and you don't control the game for three quarters and not win.

Not making any predictions but I am looking forward to next week to see which Dolphns offense shows up and what changes Parcells and Sporano make in the middle of our defense.

If we dominate the clock on offense and close the HUGE whole in the middle of our defense it's gonna make for a very interesting season.

Go Phins!!!!

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: ranger1 ()
Date: September 23, 2009 01:25PM

You wanna get rid of Porter? The only guy that did anything in the game? I have never liked Crowder I could care less if the cut, trade, fire or bench him. He is garbage always has been. Ginn is a ok 2nd or 3rd guy but not a first.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MiamiThunder ()
Date: September 23, 2009 01:47PM

He had a sack, one sack where he went in untouched, so much so that Manning saw it and sat down. I hardly call that a solid performance, any OLB would have had that sack, it was a blown coverage to block him on offense. Yeah i would give me Wake any day over Porter, he is clearly not the same man as last year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2009 01:48PM by MiamiThunder.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MikeO ()
Date: September 23, 2009 02:50PM

yeah teams will TAKE old vets. They won't part with draft picks for them

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: September 23, 2009 03:29PM

Like I said, my criticism does not go to Ginn alone but to the whole gendre of receivers that we have nowadays.

They only catch a PERCENTAGE of the ordinary catchable balls and almost NEVER make the Lynn Swann catch.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: ranger1 ()
Date: September 23, 2009 04:52PM

One Sack and two force passes both of which were incomplete, oh yeah I forgot there are no stats for that. Wake? What has he done? Give me a break you don't get rid of a proven guy for an unknown.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MiamiThunder ()
Date: September 23, 2009 08:47PM

When do you, when he is taking up roster spots, we got three solid looking OLB'S waiting for there turn, who i believe would provide much needed speed.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: RW13 ()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:16PM

ChyrenB

I have stated several times that Ginn should have made that catch. I am defending Ginn, because he deserves a fair shot at becoming a great WR in this league. His missed that opportunity and he might not on the next one. He played his first year for a really bad team and is just now starting to come around as a route runner. Most experst agree that it takes 3 years for most, not all, WR's to have their breakout year. He is 2 games into his 3rd year and we are blaming him for not making a crucial catch and costing us the game. If our defense made 1 freaking stop, then we would all be praising Ginn for a very good game.

As far as the 2 early passes go, I to went back and looked at them over and over. The first pass to fasano was way to high and a tad long. Fasano is a big target and he had to jump and try to pull the ball in with his finger tips. That would have been a great catch if he made it. However, if Chad would have put the ball in between his numbers, then we would have scored easly.

The ball to Ginn was part Chads fault and Ginns. Ginn didn't know how much room he had to work with. He needs to get better in that area of his game. The pass was long again. Just a few yards shorter and Ginn has an easy catch without having to even worry about the back of the endzone. That's where ginn is at fault, he has to know where he is, so if the pass isn't quite on target he can make adjustments to get his feet down. Which is what he was trying to do and it caused him to loose focus on the ball. He needs to learn to do both.

I support Ginn, because he has gotten better each year he has played and is already off to a better start this year. If this is the best he is going to get, then I still would want him on our team, but not as a number 1 WR. I will wait until the end of the year before I pass judgement on the guy, because that is the fair thing to do.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: MiamiThunder ()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:24PM

You know go ahead and defend the poster child for running out of bounds. Monday night was the time to prove to everyone, and when the challenge came, he fell. I dont know how long you have to wait, but catching the game winner is not teachable, its god given talent, running routes, reading defense's thats the teachable stuff. The break out stuff which you refere too as in holding onto the ball had to already be there. Eye hand cordination, what im saying is that he has the physical abilities to become great, but clearly is lacking the mental part, which is somthing that he will have to overcome, and i dont see it happening. You either get it, or you dont.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: RW13 ()
Date: September 24, 2009 06:34AM

You obviously don't know much about WRs in the NFL. The folks in te NFL, that know far more then you or I will ever know, say the same thing that I have been saying. Most WR's take 3 years to develop! Ginn is just starting his 3rd year. He has not played 3 years, there is a difference! He has gotten better each year with his route running and recieving skills. His stats prove that! Know one in their right mind gets rid of a player with Ginns potential when they are continuing to improve! Especially when they don't have a QB that can spread the field, like a Manning can! He will always be limited by Chad's inability to get the ball to him on the deep throws!

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: curt ()
Date: September 24, 2009 07:33AM

RW13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most WR's take 3 years to
> develop! Ginn is just starting his 3rd year. He
> has not played 3 years, there is a difference! He
> has gotten better each year with his route running
> and recieving skills.

While Ginn's stats have improved each year and his route running has improved, he will never be much bigger or stronger than he is right now. At 5'11" and 178 pounds, he is skinny and not too tall - even for a WR.

He is fast and could make a terrific number 2 receiver, filling the kind of role that Mark Duper used to, but he will never be the guy that can out-jump and out-muscle defensive backs for the ball.

Obviously, when going for the winning touchdown, you want to try and go to your best receiver, but I can't help but wonder if Brian Hartline wouldn't have made that catch.

Curt

Curt "DOLFAN in St. Petersburg" Fennell
Godfather, Phins.com

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: RW13 ()
Date: September 24, 2009 10:17AM

I agree with you 100%!

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: September 24, 2009 10:37AM

curt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He is fast and could make a terrific number 2
> receiver, filling the kind of role that Mark Duper
> used to, that catch.
>
> Curt


RESPONSE: Errrr.....Mark Clayton was the number 2 receiver, more of a possession type receiver. Super-DUPER was the number 1 receiver, as you say with blazing speed, and got covered most of the time resulting in Clayton piling up better stats.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: September 24, 2009 11:05AM


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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: JC ()
Date: September 24, 2009 11:18AM


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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: September 24, 2009 12:32PM

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > curt Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > He is fast and could make a terrific number
> 2
> > > receiver, filling the kind of role that Mark
> > Duper
> > > used to, that catch.
> > >
> > > Curt
> >
> >
> > RESPONSE: Errrr.....Mark Clayton was the number
> 2
> > receiver, more of a possession type receiver.
> > Super-DUPER was the number 1 receiver, as you
> say
> > with blazing speed, and got covered most of the
> > time resulting in Clayton piling up better
> stats.
>
>
> The Speed guy isn't the #1 wr just because he
> stretches the field or you have to devote a safety
> to his side of the field for deep help.
>
> Clayton was the #1 WR in that offense, duper was
> the #2 even though he was the speed guy.
>
> Very similar to Michael Irvin and Alvin Harper in
> Dallas in the early 1990's, or Jerry Rice and
> Freddie Solomon in SF.


RESPONSE: No, no, no. I'm not going just on the basis that Duper was the fastest. I'm going on memory. Duper was the number 1 guy and Clayton was the number 2 receiver.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: Rgphin ()
Date: September 24, 2009 01:02PM

I think we are going to win this game against the chargers. History will repeat itself.

Just like last year.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: September 24, 2009 01:58PM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RESPONSE: No, no, no. I'm not going just on the
> basis that Duper was the fastest. I'm going on
> memory. Duper was the number 1 guy and Clayton
> was the number 2 receiver.

You're wrong ChyrenB. Clayton was the #1. Check the stats. He caught more balls, more TDs, and for more yards than Duper.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: September 24, 2009 02:57PM

No, Montequi:

If by number 1 receiver, you are referring to stats, that's not the discussion, Curt, I, and Phins Fan 2 are having. If the two of them disagree, then let me know.

If you look at my post, I say, that Duper was the primary target and that he was so covered that Clayton got the Stats.

It kinda reminds me of What Nat Moore used to say. He said that in his first year, he was catching all kind of balls and breaking all kind of records. He began to think of himself as quite a receiver. However, he said then he looked across to the other side of the offensive line and saw Paul Warfield and kinda figured out that Warfield's presence might have a little to do with why he was getting less coverage.

You certainly don't think that Paul Warfield was not the primary receiver even when Nat Moore was piling up better statistics.

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Re: I'll man up
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: September 24, 2009 03:42PM


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