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          Playing with House Money
Miami Dolphins Civilized Discussion :  Phins.com Phorums The fastest message board... ever.
This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
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Playing with House Money
Posted by: Fins72 ()
Date: November 13, 2019 09:55AM

That's how I feel about where the team is right now. I honestly thought we'd go 0-16 (1-15 at best). I did not want the team to go without a win. I know two teams have been 0-16 before but it just would've been bad to pair being the only perfect team with a winless season. Two wins is overachieving in my eyes. Flores was dealt a horrible hand. On a roster with a dearth of talent, they took away his best offensive lineman, arguably his most consistent wide receiver, number one pick from prior year, and his most talented running back. If ever someone had an excuse for going winless, it would've been Coach Flores. If we lose every game from here on out, I still think a lots been accomplished.

If we go 2-14, it's hard to believe we won't have one of the first three picks. With Chase Young being touted as the best overall player, it's hard to believe he won't go in the top three. If so, that would give us either Burrow or Tua. I'm not entirely sure at this point which of the two I'd prefer. Burrow has been stellar but mostly for one year. Tua has been very good but I'm worried about the ankle problems. Bottom line, I guess I'd be happy with either. Plus, we have the draft capital to move up a pick or two if they are hell bent on Tua.

The question is whether we'll win anymore games this year. The jets, bengals, and giants are possible wins. I'd be surprised if we can beat the bills, pats, or eagles. I'd say the browns is a likely loss but hardly unwinnable. If Miami picks up say two more wins and goes 4-12, that could pose a problem. If you get down into the pick number 6 or 7 range, potentially Tua, Burrow and even Herbert might be gone. Again, we have the draft capital to move up but I'm greedy and want to keep all three first round picks.

On the plus side, if Flores can squeeze another 2 or 3 wins out of this roster, he'll be part coach and part magician. The remainder of the season should get more and more interesting.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Playing with House Money
Date: November 13, 2019 10:17AM

This whole concept that we need to get one of the first 3 picks to be successful is laughable and a false concept. We moved up to pick Dion Jordon at #3. How did that work out?!

The NE Pat's have not picked lower then 25 in decades. They seem to be doing just fine.eye rolling smiley

I'm thrilled we have 5 picks in the first 2 rounds. Let's hit on all 5. THATS what will make us successful. Not any one player.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: Fins72 ()
Date: November 13, 2019 10:48AM

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This whole concept that we need to get one of the
> first 3 picks to be successful is laughable and a
> false concept. We moved up to pick Dion Jordon at
> #3. How did that work out?!
>
> The NE Pat's have not picked lower then 25 in
> decades. They seem to be doing just fine.eye rolling smiley
>
> I'm thrilled we have 5 picks in the first 2
> rounds. Let's hit on all 5. THATS what will make
> us successful. Not any one player.


The patriot comparison is difficult to make because they happened on to Brady by accident. It was definitely by accident because if Bellichick had any notion that Brady would have the career he's had, there's no way he'd have waited until the 6th round to take him. I think that once you have your franchise quarterback, you have more flexibility with future draft picks. You'll note that I said I want to keep our three first round picks. I'd like for us to get our franchise quarterback and then have two additional picks in the first round to spend on best players that are available. Make no mistake, though, until this team has a quarterback that can at least occasionally take the team on his back and will it to win, we'll be no better than an average team with no possibility of winning a title. In today's NFL, with what they allow in the passing game, if you can't pass the ball, you aren't going to win consistently. Your comment about NE proves my point. If you look at the pats, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, defensive players have come and gone, but there's been one constant. Brady. We need to find a quarterback that makes the rest of the players better. Danny did that. Brady's done it. We need that.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: November 13, 2019 10:54AM

TCPF Has been schooled.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: SCPhinsFan ()
Date: November 13, 2019 12:06PM

If we get 6 wins, Flores should be coach of the year

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Playing with House Money
Date: November 13, 2019 12:37PM

Fins72 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This whole concept that we need to get one of
> the
> > first 3 picks to be successful is laughable and
> a
> > false concept. We moved up to pick Dion Jordon
> at
> > #3. How did that work out?!
> >
> > The NE Pat's have not picked lower then 25 in
> > decades. They seem to be doing just fine.eye rolling smiley
> >
> > I'm thrilled we have 5 picks in the first 2
> > rounds. Let's hit on all 5. THATS what will
> make
> > us successful. Not any one player.
>
>
> The patriot comparison is difficult to make
> because they happened on to Brady by accident. It
> was definitely by accident because if Bellichick
> had any notion that Brady would have the career
> he's had, there's no way he'd have waited until
> the 6th round to take him. I think that once you
> have your franchise quarterback, you have more
> flexibility with future draft picks. You'll note
> that I said I want to keep our three first round
> picks. I'd like for us to get our franchise
> quarterback and then have two additional picks in
> the first round to spend on best players that are
> available. Make no mistake, though, until this
> team has a quarterback that can at least
> occasionally take the team on his back and will it
> to win, we'll be no better than an average team
> with no possibility of winning a title. In today's
> NFL, with what they allow in the passing game, if
> you can't pass the ball, you aren't going to win
> consistently. Your comment about NE proves my
> point. If you look at the pats, running backs,
> wide receivers, tight ends, defensive players have
> come and gone, but there's been one constant.
> Brady. We need to find a quarterback that makes
> the rest of the players better. Danny did that.
> Brady's done it. We need that


Oh.....Brady was just an accident. Right. Seahawks had an accident.Ravens are kicking ass with thier #32 picked QB. Gronkowski, vince Wilfork, Nate solder, Dan Connoly, Marcus Cannon....I could literally go on for 2 decades....they had nothing to do with it? How many seasons did New England not even have a 1st rounder? They still drafted well AND WON. Over and over and consistently. With no players in the top 20 ever.

It's not WHEN you pick, IT'S HOW and WHO you pick. Fact. I'm not living for April. I go to games. I watch them live not taped. I live for today and will always root to win.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: November 13, 2019 12:47PM

New England picked a 7th round QB who is going on to be a Hall of Famer.

Treasure, have you ever heard of the old saying "The Exception that proves the Rule."

Let me tell you what that means. It means that if something happens so IN-frequently, in other words, so UN-OFTEN, that means that CONVENTIONAL wisdom says "don't rely on it" because it is NOT LIKELY to happen again, and certainly not soon.

Brady being drafted in the 7th round was the exception that proves the rule.

He was a gold nugget that was found in a pile of cow sh*t. What you are advocating for us to do, TC, is that if we HAVE TO GET a QB, look for him among the cow sh*t.

Your screaming point is that it is not when you pick but HOW and WHO, you pick.

LOL. When you're picking in the cow sh*t, you are not likely to find anything but turds.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: Ken ()
Date: November 13, 2019 09:20PM

Yes Treasure, it is WHO you pick and How you pick, but your odds of getting a blue chip QB are much greater the higher you pick that player. That's why we need to pick one with a high pick and if we miss this year we have to take another one next year and every year until we hit on one.

The coaches are really working with Rosen this year to get him up to speed according to reports...just maybe they know something we don't know. Maybe he's gotten better and maybe he makes our picking of a top QB redundant...the only people who know are not talking and we won't find out until draft day.

Either way we should take a QB in the first round this year because Fitz should be released in the off season...he is a place holder and isn't the guy we need moving forward. That would leave us with a top ten guy, and another first round player to battle for the starters job...win, win, for us moving forward. Ruddock is good enough to hold the clipboard.

If I was running the draft, I'd take Tua, Burrows or Herbert with our #1 barring some unforeseen reason for not taking them. If those guys are gone at say 4, then you have to re-think a bit. Then the rest of the draft would be BPA regardless of position. F/A would be focused on depth guys and upgrades to the O and D-Lines...but not necessarily with a strict eye toward immediate starters.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: tsstamper ()
Date: November 13, 2019 10:36PM

I think that's why I'm encouraged by having what appears (same caveat: lots of football yet to be played, and not just this year) to be a good coaching staff in place. With all of the non-#1 QBs who went on to have more success than the #1 overall picks, there seems to be a common theme of them going into the right overall situation...a team with a strong culture and coaches who know how to get the most out of players, put them into best position to succeed together, etc. Whether it was Brady joining Belicheck or Wilson joining Carroll or Roethlisberger joining Cowher or Warner joining Vermeil. You could even look at it like Rodgers joining McCarthy because technically Rodgers was there first, but it was McCarthy who made him starter. I think we're doing things in the right order - getting the coach(ing staff) to create a winning culture...to be a culture in which an elite QB can thrive for years. I'm positive that if the Pats had to re-draft 2000, they would pick Brady with their first pick instead of OT Adrian Klemm. I'm positive they would have bundled multiple picks to move up to whatever it took to get Brady had they known. I doubt the Seahawks are nearly as thankful they landed Bruce Irvin in the 1st as they are that they landed Wilson in the 3rd. But the point is - wherever they got them, they had the right culture and knew what to do with them to maximize chances for success.

Cases like Peyton Manning @ #1 who elevated his whole team, coaching staff included are too far and few between to build an approach around. Likewise, if you’re planning on winning a SB w/o an elite QB, you better have at least 2 generational HoF players on your defense.

Of course, not all successful models are draft wherever & develop. Payton & Brees arrived in NO the same year and were probably both a huge part in setting the long-term winning culture there. I don’t know whether there is a Brees-like veteran QB out there for us.

Probably the thing I was most worried about (and still am to an extent) is the SD model with Rivers. My guess is that Belicheck would have still won multiple SB’s with Rivers instead of Brady…and that Brady would have had a more Rivers-like career in SD. Getting Tua or Joe or anyone else with an elite makeup without having a winning culture just isn’t as good as having a winning culture and adding the right QB. Hell, Rivers played most of his career with himself & 2 other HoF talents on the offensive side alone and they always seemed to come up well short of truly competing for SBs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2019 10:39PM by tsstamper.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Date: November 13, 2019 10:43PM

Never said I was against taking a QB in the first round. Just said it's not DO OR DIE.We have options. Not taking a QB with the first 5 picks could insure more success with Rosen or a QB taken in 2021. Dolphins need to pick the right player. Its crucial we dont blow this opportunity to rebuild this team. Just taking a QB because we should sounds like something Al Davis and the Raiders would do. I think Tua isnt going to last at the NFL level.His ankles are bad. Burrows is a much better prospect. But again.....Chase Young doesnt come along very often. We have Options. That's all I'm saying

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: pafinfan ()
Date: November 14, 2019 05:24AM

One thing to look forward next year is that it SEEMS that we finally have a coaching staff who can coach and get the best out of players we have.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: Grimey13 ()
Date: November 14, 2019 05:26AM

pafinfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing to look forward next year is that it
> SEEMS that we finally have a coaching staff who
> can coach and get the best out of players we have.

smileys with beerthumbs up

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Re: Playing with House Money
Date: November 14, 2019 12:55PM

I agree pafinfan. And its something that other so called Dolphins fans overlook. Flores is doing an outstanding job.smileys with beer

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: November 14, 2019 02:35PM

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never said I was against taking a QB in the first
> round. Just said it's not DO OR DIE.We have
> options. Not taking a QB with the first 5 picks
> could insure more success with Rosen or a QB taken
> in 2021. Dolphins need to pick the right player.
> Its crucial we dont blow this opportunity to
> rebuild this team.
>
>Just taking a QB .................because we should.......sounds >like something Al Davis and the Raiders would do.



>I think Tua isnt going to last
> at the NFL level.His ankles are bad. Burrows is a
> much better prospect. But again.....Chase Young
> doesnt come along very often. We have Options.
> That's all I'm saying.

RESPONSE: Shouldn't everybody ALWAYS do everything that THEY SHOULD?????????????????

LOL. It's no insult to Al Davis that he does everything he SHOULD.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Playing with House Money
Date: November 14, 2019 10:18PM

Grimey13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pafinfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One thing to look forward next year is that it
> > SEEMS that we finally have a coaching staff who
> > can coach and get the best out of players we
> have.
>
> smileys with beerthumbs up



Saw an interesting article.....what if?


"Miami Dolphins fans are banging their fists for a first-round quarterback but what if the answer all along has been and will be Josh Rosen?"


It's very possible they use this years picks to surround Rosen and give him what he needs to be successful.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: November 15, 2019 12:16AM

Let's just walk down memory lane. I remember that draft. I was sitting in my car before going to see my buddy outside the hospital he was in. We were due to draft 11th I believe.

Let's be clear. I was hoping we would draft UCLA Quarterback Josh Rosen, who I had been seeing playing out here at UCLA. We had the 12th pick as I recall

When the 11th pick was up, the Arizona cardinals traded into the 11th spot and chose Rosen. I tried to tell Treasure then that Arizona did that because they knew we wanted Rosen.

When Rosen gets healthy U will C why this old guy from L.A. wanted him.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: Ken ()
Date: November 15, 2019 12:19AM

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grimey13 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > pafinfan Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > One thing to look forward next year is that
> it
> > > SEEMS that we finally have a coaching staff
> who
> > > can coach and get the best out of players we
> > have.
> >
> > smileys with beerthumbs up
>
>
>
> Saw an interesting article.....what if?
>
>
> "Miami Dolphins fans are banging their fists for a
> first-round quarterback but what if the answer all
> along has been and will be Josh Rosen?"
>
>
> It's very possible they use this years picks to
> surround Rosen and give him what he needs to be
> successful.


RE: and that's fine with me as long as the coaches know what they are doing and it actually works out for a change. If they know more about Rosen than we do that's OK with me. That said, I still think we have to add a QB in this years draft and still want a high pick to be the guy...even if Rosen is the starter going forward.

Just want results.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: Fins72 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 05:18AM

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Grimey13 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > pafinfan Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > One thing to look forward next year is that
> > it
> > > > SEEMS that we finally have a coaching staff
> > who
> > > > can coach and get the best out of players
> we
> > > have.
> > >
> > > smileys with beerthumbs up
> >
> >
> >
> > Saw an interesting article.....what if?
> >
> >
> > "Miami Dolphins fans are banging their fists for
> a
> > first-round quarterback but what if the answer
> all
> > along has been and will be Josh Rosen?"
> >
> >
> > It's very possible they use this years picks to
> > surround Rosen and give him what he needs to be
> > successful.
>
>
> RE: and that's fine with me as long as the coaches
> know what they are doing and it actually works out
> for a change. If they know more about Rosen than
> we do that's OK with me. That said, I still think
> we have to add a QB in this years draft and still
> want a high pick to be the guy...even if Rosen is
> the starter going forward.
>
> Just want results.

I have a feeling that if we aren't positioned to take one of the three top quarterback prospects (presumably Tua, Burrow, and Herbert) Grier will trade up. Everything about this year tells me that they're all in on drafting a highly regarded quarterback. I'm not sure how I feel about that because we have SO many holes to fill that I don't want to lose any of those picks but I only hope that if they do, whoever they take becomes elite. There'd be a whole lot riding on that pick if it takes two first rounders to secure it.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: pafinfan ()
Date: November 15, 2019 05:26AM

If Miami does have to trade up to get a QB it shouldn't break the draft for them. Not with all those draft picks in the next 2 years.

We could afford to move up if we have to.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 05:29AM

OK say we give Rosen another chance, which im ambivalent to at best. We use our 3 first rounders to fill other spots. I would go for Jalen Hurts with our second round pick. Im ignoring this guy so far regardless of what he is doing on the field just like I ignored Russell Wilson coming out of WI. At least I know why I ignored Wilson I disliked his height. Like Wilson Hurts won at 2 schools which is extremely rare for a college qb and a great sign that the guy can excel at the qb position. Also like the way Hurts handled himself after getting benched for Tua. Although he didn't like it he kept his head was not selfish and was not a distraction. Kept practicing and when called upon to come off the bench and get a big win for his team in the SEC championship he was ready.

Don't want to hear about his schedule and playing in the Big 12. Same conference that recent qbs like Randolph and Mayfield played in. He went 3/1 td int ratio against Texas which has a good secondary. The Texas qb went 0/0 and I like Ehlinger.

What makes things interesting if we decide to give Rosen another look and not go qb with our first number 1 do we trade down? Stock more picks for 2021? Now you are playing with house money.


Regarding Tua and his ankles high ankle sprains are not a sign of bad ankles. They just happen (open for correction, this has been my experience from sports). Some doctors do not agree that surgery was necessary for Tua this year. Some physicians believe the surgical procedure that was performed will actually reduce the chances of future sprains.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 05:36AM

It doesnt matter what qb we pick from the first three . It all depends if we put him in the right situation to succeed..If we draft the right Olinemen and recivers etc. If we teach him the right way.


But i got a feeling its all going to change for the best with flores at the helm.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 06:19AM

All true Sam, why Im beginning to think we don't even have to pick from the top 3 qbs in this draft. We can pick from 4-6 Hurts, Eason or Fromm to challenge Rosen. If we think Rosen deserves a closer look 7-8 Ehlinger maybe Costello to develop behind him (with an eye open to taking another qb in 2021). Then you still have guys like Patterson, Lewereke, Stanley (think these 3 will develop) and Montez (some like I do not). Then you have 6/7 round guys like like Love, Mcmillian, Mond and the qb from South Carolina. Someting I like about each of these guys. Love had a great 2018, not looking good this year needs to go back for his SR year.

Going to be interesting. Good qb class in 2020.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 07:02AM

Mizzou i would pick one of the first three in the first round with the first pick if we can. The higher the pick the better the chance we have of drafting a gem QB. I always thought that.

We have enough picks after that.

We have to take a chance in someone lets say like burrows.

If we start winning from now on we wont have a chance of picking this high again in a while.

If everything turns out like we want that is.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 07:38AM

I hear ya Sam. Im thinking I see some Russell Wilson in Hurts, Drew Brees in Fromm and as much talent in Eason, Ehlinger and Costello in some quality nfl starters when they were at their stages.
It will be an interesting draft.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 08:34AM

I contadict my self....when we pick the right qb yes we start winning and dont pick low anymore...lol

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: astro34 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 09:41AM

I agree the QB class looks deep. This is my thought. A great offensive line can make players great. Take Kurt Warner, he could not make an NFL team then all of a sudden he is in the Hall Of Fame. Really?? NO he just landed in the right spot.

One draft has us taking Andrew Thomas (tackle from Georgia), then Tyler Baidasz C/G from Wisconsin), then D'Andre Swift RB from Georgia) I kind of like this draft.(would take Young if he was avaiable) Fix the offensive line and you make your skill players much better. Don't you think Barry Sanders would have loved Emmitt Smith's offensive line. Even Dak Prescott looks great when their line is healthy.

I do agree with getting a QB later if we can do something like this in the first round. Fromm or Love look good and possibly will be available. We could always fix many of the rest of the holes and go with Rosen, and see what he can do behind a good offensive line.

As good as our coaching is even if he is not the answer then I say package the two first rounders in 2021 and move up and get the kid from Clemson.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Date: November 15, 2019 09:49AM

Yes! Now you all are making sense.Rosen is being developed, pick from this deep QB draft lower and have them compete. In the meantime pick other players that put them in a place to succeed. If we make a few great picks this can really make this team formidable again.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 11:01AM

Lmao.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: November 15, 2019 11:03AM

Let us pick a qb in the 6th...im sure we get lucky like new england again. Brady comes once in 1000 years.

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Re: Playing with House Money
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: November 15, 2019 11:35AM

Precisely.

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