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This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: captkoi ()
Date: December 31, 2014 10:34AM

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You know I'm tired of the same thing over and
> over
> > again. Drafting for need. Seems like it was
> just
> > yesterday that we drafted Jake Long and have
> been
> > drafting olinemen, Dlinemen like Dion Jordan,
> and
> > with the brief exception of Tannehill, we are
> > drafting either oline or dline and taking 3rd
> or
> > later round shots at rbs, wrs, and qbs.
> >
> > I know the stat geeks will jump on this.
> >
> > I'd like to see us do something bold in the
> next
> > draft. Grab Bret Hundley, QB, UCLA.
> >
> > get the best player on the board available to
> us
> > without regard to position and try to build
> team
> > around him like Shula built around Griese.
>
>
> Couldn't agree more. But we won't. A coach on
> the hot seat trying to prove the last three years
> weren't as lackluster as they seem will keep right
> on 'drafting for need' as we have for the last
> decade (with the exception of DJ...not really sure
> what sober person could of seen him as a need and
> certianly not a BPA at #3 Overall).
>
> No Chyren, we'll keep right on trying to build a
> bulletproof NASCAR chassis to run our Prius engine
> in...

****************************************************

KB, a team MUST continue to draft for need until the problem gets fixed! I realize QB is a whole different ball game, but it is the same philosophy.

Our OL (slightly) improved this year, but still needs help. So, because the front office has continually tried, and failed, to get a solid line, they should give it up since it hasn't worked, and look elsewhere? I don't think so.

Miami has holes to fill at numerous positions, so drafting for need won't hurt, as the positions that Miami needs will also come about with the BPA. In Miami's case, they work hand-in-hand.

Now, when the team is solid all around and only needs tweaking (ala the Patriots) THEN the Fins can go BPA without thinking of NEED.

Some people on this board don't think much of RT, and haven't since he got to the Fins. Well, if and when Miami can get their OL in place, ala the Cowboys, RT will bring his game even higher than he already has. That's why Miami must continue trying to get their building blocks.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: captkoi ()
Date: December 31, 2014 10:36AM

JoeFootball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It might be 21st IF YOU INCLUDE all the scrubs who
> played one or two games. If you just include full
> time starting QB's, Tannehill was around 11th or
> 12th.
>
> Actually only 11 Qb's threw for over 4,000 yards,
> not quite half.
>
> Cutler, Flacco, Romo, Russell Wilson, Dalton
> Kaepernick, Alex Smith, Cam Newton....NONE of them
> made the milestone.
>
> Tannehill had a good year in spite of all the
> injuries and sacks no matter how you try skew the
> stats.
>
> The only other QB who had even close to the number
> of sacks was Alex Smith and he is a 10 year VET.

********************************************************

Also, how many QBs have started every game since coming into the league? The guy is tough.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: KB ()
Date: December 31, 2014 10:57AM

JoeFootball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It might be 21st IF YOU INCLUDE all the scrubs who
> played one or two games. If you just include full
> time starting QB's, Tannehill was around 11th or
> 12th.
>

Nope, even if you leave out those under 100 attempts he's still like 14th. Whatever, if your happy with a middle of the road QB with a GLARING deficiency in his game (can't stretch the field) then ok, but if so we should have just kept Fielder, Feely or Henne. They they had different problems but this is the NFL if there is only ONE thing a QB can't do well, good teams will exploit it.

> Actually only 11 Qb's threw for over 4,000 yards,
> not quite half.
>
> Cutler, Flacco, Romo, Russell Wilson, Dalton
> Kaepernick, Alex Smith, Cam Newton....NONE of them
> made the milestone.

Oh, sorry, Flaco missed it by 4 yards lol. I said when all is said and done, that includes the playoffs which several guys within less than 300 yards are in...

>
> Tannehill had a good year in spite of all the
> injuries and sacks no matter how you try skew the
> stats.
>
> The only other QB who had even close to the number
> of sacks was Alex Smith and he is a 10 year VET.

'The only other QB who had even close to the number of sacks was Alex Smith' huh? Kapernick was sacked more than Tannehill as was Bortles (but I won't count that one lol) as well Wilson (home field advantage through playoffs) was only sacked 4 times less and Stafford (play offs) was only sacked 1 less time...who is skewing numbers???

I'm just tired of the same old excuses...I've heard it for over a decade now: But, but, but it's NOT Henne's fault,...but, but, but, drops, sacks, can't tackle, can't er, uh...if only, If only...we had a line, a defense, a receiver who would get seperation, a running back.......if, if, if. meanwhile we are STILL 8-8 after three years of the current set up... If it means giving up on Tannehill to move this team forward, so be it.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 31, 2014 11:25AM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: Crowder52 ()
Date: December 31, 2014 11:32AM

KB, how about this, Tannehill's passer rating stat this year was better then Marino's passer rating stats in 15 of his 18 seasons... So Marino only has a better passer rating in 3 of his very best years... I am not sure what you are looking for, but to deny Tannehill had a very very respectable year is ludicrous.. The fact we are 8-8 this year is not on Tannehill.. It is really on the defense...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 11:32AM by Crowder52.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: captkoi ()
Date: December 31, 2014 11:35AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cap, the short answer to what you pose to me and
> KB when you said "KB, a team MUST continue to
> draft for need until the problem gets fixed" is
> the old adage that doing the same thing over and
> over and getting the same results over and over
> BUT expecting a different result is .....not a
> fruitful path.
>
> And if we can't even spare a second round (as Dan
> Marino was because he draft position was not that
> far from the beginning of the second round) when
> we had a SuperBowl QB in David Woodley
> then......well we keep on doing the same thing
> over and over again and expecting a different
> result.

**************************************************

Chryen, I understand your pain, however...

Your analogy does not apply in football (IMO). A team has poor QB play (and Miami does not), a QB is continually drafted (or obtained by other means) until that problem is fixed. The Dolphins have OL problems, thus they continue to try to fix that problem.

You wish to draft a QB high up in the upcoming draft. OK...what do you think will happen to that guy behind this OL, the way they have been playing?

Solidify the OL, and if in the future RT does not improve, then go after a QB, but until then, as I mentioned before, Miami has far too many holes they need to fill to worry about drafting a QB.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 31, 2014 12:35PM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: jlyell13 ()
Date: December 31, 2014 01:24PM

need to take a few of these along woith DL, LB & OL, maybe safety. Trade Wallace & Hartline maybe Wake or Jordan for picks

WR

Davante parker
Kevin White
Ty Montgomery
Dorial Green-beckham
Tyler Lockett
Breshad Perriman?


RB
TJ Yeldon
Tevin Coleman
Mike Davis
Duke Johnson
Ameer Abdullah
javorius Allen
Storm Woods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2014 01:25PM by jlyell13.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: December 31, 2014 01:48PM

There's the madness that is chyren, advocating taking a QB early based oh him being a traditional pocket QB.....only problem is, Hundley is not that, his scouting report reads like it could of been written for Tannehill 3 years ago, except Hundleys actually says he ran some read option in college.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 31, 2014 02:36PM

But I've been watching him here at UCLA. He has the athleticism but he is mainly a pocket QB. And far better at it than Tannehill. I saw him do a drop back deep pass that.....

And we are again talking about the second round.

What should we do, take an extra o lineman or d lineman in the second round?

Oh yeah, let's keep drafting lineman as we have been doing in the first rounds for the last one hundred years with the exception of Tanny and Marino and sooner or later we're bound to fix this.

And there is the blindness that is dolphaholic (but he's a funny guy).

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: December 31, 2014 03:18PM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: jlyell13 ()
Date: December 31, 2014 03:35PM

Hundley reminds me a bit of........Russell Wilson

I would take him over Winston any day. Winston seems like Vince Young II

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 31, 2014 04:07PM

And so far so was Dion, holic

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: December 31, 2014 05:07PM

Okaaaaaay

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 31, 2014 05:29PM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: JoeFootball ()
Date: January 01, 2015 02:13AM

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Nope, even if you leave out those under 100
> attempts he's still like 14th. Whatever, if your
> happy with a middle of the road QB with a GLARING
> deficiency in his game (can't stretch the field)
> then ok, but if so we should have just kept
> Fielder, Feely or Henne. They they had different
> problems but this is the NFL if there is only ONE
> thing a QB can't do well, good teams will exploit
> it.

Your getting caught up in semantics. This year was an anomaly to begin with...

Last year only 10 full time QB's had a rating over 90. Including Kaepernick who was #10. Those "middle of the road" QB's of 2013 included Tom Brady (17) and Andrew Luck (19). Matt Stafford was 23rd and he put up over 4,600 yards.

It has nothing to do with being happy with a middle of the road QB (which he is not). It has more to do with a DEVELOPING QB who gets better by leaps and bounds every year. Look at the numbers. Did you forget how inexperienced he was as a college QB? of course it's going to take time when the rest of your team is inadequate.

I don't even know what the debate is about. Are you suggesting we give up on Tannehill? What is the alternative? Start over? That's ludicrous.

There is no reason to believe he won't continue to improve next year. He showed the ability to throw the deep balls at the end of the season. it's pat of his game I fully expect to improve in 2015.

> 'The only other QB who had even close to the
> number of sacks was Alex Smith' huh? Kapernick
> was sacked more than Tannehill as was Bortles (but
> I won't count that one lol) as well Wilson (home
> field advantage through playoffs) was only sacked
> 4 times less and Stafford (play offs) was only
> sacked 1 less time...who is skewing numbers???

I thought we were talking about QB's good QB ratings. Bortles and Kaepernick do not qualify. 69 amd 86 rating?

Wilson threw 138 fewer passes than Tannehill and 7 fewer TD's. Isn't he on the best TEAM in the NFL? Top defense. Top running game?

>
> I'm just tired of the same old excuses...I've
> heard it for over a decade now: But, but, but it's
> NOT Henne's fault,...but, but, but, drops, sacks,
> can't tackle, can't er, uh...if only, If only...we
> had a line, a defense, a receiver who would get
> seperation, a running back.......if, if, if.
> meanwhile we are STILL 8-8 after three years of
> the current set up... If it means giving up on
> Tannehill to move this team forward, so be it.

How do you move forward without a franchise QB? Draft one at 14 who may or may not be as good. That's never going to happen so why even worry about it? As we continue to fix the line and get healthy, Tannehill will be a PB QB next year.

The fact that you think we are just as well off with a QB like Henne or Fielder sounds like an emotional response. They had no where near the ceiling as RT. They NEVER had as good of a season as Tanneill did this year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2015 02:19AM by JoeFootball.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: jsm08 ()
Date: January 01, 2015 04:03AM

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB, how about this, Tannehill's passer rating stat
> this year was better then Marino's passer rating
> stats in 15 of his 18 seasons... So Marino only
> has a better passer rating in 3 of his very best
> years... I am not sure what you are looking for,
> but to deny Tannehill had a very very respectable
> year is ludicrous.. The fact we are 8-8 this year
> is not on Tannehill.. It is really on the
> defense...

If Marino played with today's QB friendly rules he'd post a rating of 100+ every year, throw for 6000 yards, and 40 tds.

seriously, you're comparing apples to oranges. all today's qbs have to do is take a step to the right or left and throw it away to avoid pressure. they don't have to worry about the ronnie lott's roming the middle of the field. the db can't touch the WR after 5 yards. can you imagine clayton and duper running in today's NFL?

Tannehill is a decent QB. Until he can hit some deep passes with consistency defenses will crowd the line and our offense will be limited. I have no problem drafting a QB after round 4 but to only point to stats to evaluate Tannehill is short sighted.

I think we could take a page out of the Cowboys game plan and run the ball more. We need to commit to running Lamar 25x a game. Take some pressure off the QB. It worked wonders with Romo.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: CG ()
Date: January 01, 2015 06:38AM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: January 01, 2015 06:57AM

Hundley is not EJ Manuel neither is he Tannehill much better than both at the same point in their careers. He is a much more confident leader than Manuel and no comparison on the deep throw vs Tanne. Take a look at the ASU & UTAH games form 2014. My issue w/ him was I didn't see much fifference between his FR and Jr years but then again he was a damn good freshman.

I am becoming convinced that Tanne cannot consistently make that long throw and I have always been a Tanne supporter.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: January 01, 2015 07:12AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point being that we wasted AN OVERALL number
> three pick. For THOSE DOZING WHO MIGHT MISS
> IT........that's not a THIRD ROUNDER NO, NO, NO,
> NO.
>
> It's a FIRST ROUNDER!!!!!
>
>
> AND WHAT'S MORE.....IT'S THE NUMBER THREE OVERALL
> PICK OF THE ENTIRE DRAFT.
>
> Like I say, he was supposed to be the next Jason
> Taylor so I cut them some slack about being wrong
> but you're the guys arguing that basically, we
> should still be doing the same thing over and over
> and over again
>
> ....and the only damn good thing we got out of the
> last 7 drafts is Jake Long and Mike Pouncey.
>
> Oh....and Ryan Tannehill when he learns to hit the
> long ball and not get sacked.....oh yeah....last
> year we worked on him learning to throw the ball
> in the cheap seats when he has time to (something
> that most every good high school QB knows) and it
> looks like IN HIS THIRD YEAR...Tannehill has
> finally learned that.
>
> Tannehill's chief defender on this board is SamSam
> and even SamSam goes off his bandwagon
> occasionally.
>
> I'm just saying INSTEAD OF ANOTHER FIRST AND
> SECOND ROUND strike out, hell yes, INSTEAD OF
> WASTING A SECOND ROUND ON ANOTHER LINEMAN OR
> LINEBACKER OR OFFENSIVE LINEMAN THAT probably will
> be a BUST, go ahead and snatch one of the premier
> QBs in the best draft for QBs since 1983, IF HE'S
> STILL THERE.
>
> But you know the funny thing is..
>
> I say:
>
> 1) Fire Ireland.....everyone on the board attacks
> me until right before it is done and then everyone
> RETROACTIVELY thinks he sucked
>
> 2) Put Tanny in the read option and he'll make
> better plays.
>
> Everyone on the board attacks me and disagrees
> until Philbin finally does so and on the rare
> occasions he does, we see the quarterback we
> expected when we drafted him and the QB that the
> draftniks had elevated to the number 3 QB in that
> draft.
>
> 3) Fire Philbin
>
> Everyone on the board attacks me viciously but
> toward the end, JSM08 IS THE ONLY POSTER NOT
> calling for him to be fired.
>
> So this is no different.


There's so much misinformation in this post that it's hard to tell if you're straight up lying to get your point across ala a politician, or if early stage dementia is setting in, it's hard to get a point across to someone that fabricates stuff just to make a point, but a few gems from the above post that cant go unchecked are;

1. Samsam is nowhere close to being Tannehills chief defender on this board, that would belong to Treasure but he seems to have taken a hiatus at the moment, either way, Samsam isn't even in the team picture for supporting RT17, not even close. And......

2. This years QB class is very weak, outside of Marriotta and MAYBE Jameis Winston, this QB class is a crap shoot. I'm not a draftnik nor do I watch a lot of CFB and even I can see that. But there you are touting it as "the best QB class since 83" to make a point that we HAVE to take a QB early.

Like politics, the problem with making stuff up and repeating it over and over again is that people start believing it and it becomes the mantra of this board, like stating that Hundley is a pure pocket passer better then Tannehill right now, I showed you multiple scouting reports disputing both of those facts but you ignore that and keep repeating false info in the hopes that other posters will agree with you. Now it's gonna be that this is the "best QB class since 83", in reality, farthest thing from The Truth, yet you'll keep saying it until others believe it.

As far as your theory that instead of wasting a 2nd rnd pick on a position of need (WR/OL/DL/CB/Lcool smiley, it'd be better to waste a 2nd rnd pick on a position we don't have a glaring need at (Qcool smiley, i'm not even sure where to begin or what to say about that, other then I'd get that dementia thing checked out if I was you.......

Happy New Year Chyren

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 01, 2015 09:46AM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 01, 2015 10:37AM

I take it you have no response to any of the points above and throwing out insults is your last resort.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: January 01, 2015 11:27AM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: jsm08 ()
Date: January 01, 2015 11:28AM

message board champ!

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: JC ()
Date: January 01, 2015 11:34AM

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have plenty to say,


Good, how about you say it without disrespecting other posters, and without calling them crazy or demented.

Thanks
JC

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: January 01, 2015 11:51AM


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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: JC ()
Date: January 01, 2015 12:12PM

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JC Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dolphaholic Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I have plenty to say,
> >
> >
> > Good, how about you say it without
> disrespecting
> > other posters, and without calling them crazy
> or
> > demented.
> >
> > Thanks
> > JC
>
>
> But what if they are though JC?.........alright,
> alright, just kidding, I'll contain myself


Yes even if you think "they are though" you must not disrespect anyone nor call them names. Thank you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2015 07:18PM by JC.

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: Crowder52 ()
Date: January 01, 2015 04:58PM

jsm08 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If Marino played with today's QB friendly rules
> he'd post a rating of 100+ every year, throw for
> 6000 yards, and 40 tds.
>
> seriously, you're comparing apples to oranges.
> all today's qbs have to do is take a step to the
> right or left and throw it away to avoid pressure.
> they don't have to worry about the ronnie lott's
> roming the middle of the field. the db can't
> touch the WR after 5 yards. can you imagine
> clayton and duper running in today's NFL?
>
> Tannehill is a decent QB. Until he can hit some
> deep passes with consistency defenses will crowd
> the line and our offense will be limited. I have
> no problem drafting a QB after round 4 but to only
> point to stats to evaluate Tannehill is short
> sighted.
>
> I think we could take a page out of the Cowboys
> game plan and run the ball more. We need to
> commit to running Lamar 25x a game. Take some
> pressure off the QB. It worked wonders with Romo.

You are missing the point, you can say what if Marino played now, ok... What if... The bottom line is we had the best QB play from our team since Marino.. And no one to this point on our team has come close to putting up Marino type numbers even in a more QB friendly league.. And now we have a guy who is doing that and you all are still complaining... I would much rather have it that you guys can only diss Tannehill's numbers by saying well, now it is much more QB friendly league... If that is all you got to criticize Tannehill with, then I think you are all more then proving the point I was making with my comments by what you are knocking about them.... got it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: colonel ()
Date: January 01, 2015 05:53PM

Crowder52--clearly Tannehill's stats are impressive and clearly the best stats since Marino retired. However, he's not in Marino's league yet, you know that, all of us know that. I can't speak for everyone, but I surmise, we all want him to throw 30 TDs next year, make more completions for more "meaningful" yardage, and to improve his skills in the red zone. Great QBs score when they get close. thumbs up

RT is still on the rise, has plenty of room to improve, and I certainly hope, as many of us do, that he does just that next season. As for Marino....

If Dan played today, given the changes in rules, I'll bet that he would have astonished everyone more than he did when he really played. winking smiley

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Re: Next Draft
Posted by: Crowder52 ()
Date: January 01, 2015 06:21PM

I agree Colonel that Tannehill is not in Marino's league.. But in some ways he is better... One example, Marino never in his entire career, even his record setting 1984 year, had a completion percentage as high as Tannehill had this year...
You are right Tannehill looks to be still on the rise... He has vastly improved each year in every stat category... It is no secret, I was as hard on Tannehill in his first year and pre draft as anyone around here.. And I have changed my position as he has improved over the last 2 seasons.. I feel many people take for granted what we have in him at this point... We waited a long time to have a good QB and now we have one, and many seem to take that for granted... There is no "what ifs", it is only what we have now and it looks pretty damn good to me at the QB position...

We could draft a QB in the first rd every year the next 5-10 drafts and not get what we have now.. The time is to build the team around our guy, and save the QB chasing for the 20 other teams that don't have what we have in Tannehill...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

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