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          we weren't always a joke
Miami Dolphins Civilized Discussion :  Phins.com Phorums The fastest message board... ever.
This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
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we weren't always a joke
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: January 24, 2014 06:19PM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: Ken ()
Date: January 24, 2014 07:42PM

I still am proud to be a Dolphin's Fan...always will be, no mater what.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: jsm08 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 05:03AM

i'm still proud and that was awesome.

just think if he played today with all the rules favoring the offense he'd throw for 6000 yrda and 60 tds.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: BigNastyFish ()
Date: January 25, 2014 05:59AM

I don't now how anyone can watch that -- with Marino having good but NOT great protection -- and how amazingly FAST he made excellent decisions and then seemingly instantaneously the ball was OUT and perfectly thrown. Time after time after time like a machine.

Dan Marino in his prime is in a class way beyond ANY other QB.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 06:59AM

marino was the man. but mark clayton was something else too.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 07:01AM

When dan was here we were a force to be wreken with.....After dan and for the last 25 years we are the PEWEE HERMAN in THE MOVIE THEATER LIKE JOKE.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: January 25, 2014 08:34AM

Never seen so many wide open receivers as well as WR's that fought for the ball.

One thing no one can ever take away from Marino is the fact that he was THE FIRST to throw for over 5,000 yards (as well as break the 40 TD mark (48)).

The TD record (36) at the time was held by YA Tittle. That was a long standing record. 1963 to 1984.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: January 25, 2014 08:37AM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: dolphan4545 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 09:36AM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 25, 2014 10:04AM

But also remember Berk, that Clayton was the possession guy and Duper was the breakway speed guy (the Mike Wallace).

Possession guys, like Welker, usually tend to pile up more catches than the deep threat.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: dolphan4545 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 10:12AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But also remember Berk, that Clayton was the
> possession guy and Duper was the breakway speed
> guy (the Mike Wallace).
>
> Possession guys, like Welker, usually tend to pile
> up more catches than the deep threat.

Actually, Nat Moore was the possession guy because Clayton had nearly as much speed as Duper and caught plenty of long balls.

Rick

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 25, 2014 02:59PM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: January 25, 2014 03:42PM

clayton was not as fast a duper but he was far from a possession receiver. guy averaged more than 15 yds per catch for his career. lots of his yards came after the catch as he'd run away from folks unlike duper who was more like mike wallace (except he could catch and had a QB who could hit him in stride). he was a faster and more shifty wes welker if you want to make the comparison

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 25, 2014 04:23PM

Yes I would agree with a faster and more shifty Welker and I would also agree with Duper having the speed of Wallace. I don't know what Welker's yardage per catch statistics are but I would be surprised if it were only LESS THAN 10 YARDS PER CATCH.


Let me go back and check (on Welker that is).

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 25, 2014 04:40PM

Well berk, here are the career stats for Welker


Rec Yds
818 9,228 about 11.2 yards per reception

For Clayton

Receptions 582
Receiving yards 8,974 about 15.42 yards per reception.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: Anemone1 ()
Date: January 26, 2014 03:19AM

In 1984 the Phins' closest thing to a possession receiver was Nat Moore, who they usually brought in on 3rd down (and sometimes 1st or 2nd for 3 receiver sets), and Jim Jensen. In reality, they didn't have a real "possesion" receiver. Marino threw it to whoever was open, which seems to be all of them.

In '84, Clayton's and Duper's stats were almost identical (73 receptions, 1389 yards for Clayton, 71 receptions, 1306 yards for Duper). Clayton had the higher ypc than Duper that year. Watch the video and see how many times Clayton ran away from the defenders. Yes, Duper was a little faster, but Clayton was no slowpoke. Clayton also had the better nose for the endzone.

What is most surprising to me about that season is that the Phins rushed for over 1,800 yards, with a 4.2 ypc average. Pete Johnson had 9 rushing TDs, and Woody Bennet had 7 rushing TDs. It wasn't like they couldn't run the ball.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: dolphan4545 ()
Date: January 26, 2014 09:53AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back from my wife having busted out two tires
> from...well...
>
> Rick, Nat Moore started in about 1974. Duper and
> Clayton started in 1983 although one of those two
> may have started the year before.
>
> Their (Moore versus Duper and Clayton together)
> TWO DIFFERENT ERAS coincided at about the end of
> Nat Moore's career and during the beginning of the
> careers of the Magic Markers
>
> but as stated by his bio in wikipedia:
>
> By the time Moore retired at the end of 1986, his
> thirteenth season with the Dolphins, he had broken
> almost every receiving record of the Dolphins; his
> team records, however, were subsequently broken by
> Dolphins wide receivers Mark Clayton and Mark
> Duper in the 1980s and 1990s.
>
> So you are talking about two eras at best.
>
> NEXT POINT, Clayton was not known to have nearly
> as much speed as "Super Duper."
>
> You can challenge me on all those PFF stats and
> whatever but be careful when you challenge the old
> man on ancient history TO WHICH HE WAS A DIRECT
> WITNESS and did not just read about in books like
> you youngsters have.

This post is so full of foolish statements I hardly know where to begin.
1. Moore's and Duper and Clayton overlapped by four years, though they only started together for three. Moore was definitely the posession receiver and sideline specialist in those years.

2. Clayton was known as having good speed, but was somewhat slower than Duper, who had world-class speed. However, his career average of 15.4 ypc is NOT indicative of a possession receiver, and in his early career his average hovered around 19.0 ypc. This is a deep threat.

3. Clayton was NEVER a posession receiver. in the years of the Marks brothers there were many posession receivers - the TEs like Dan Johnson and Bruce Hardy, and guys like Jim Jensen, Tom Vigorito, Scott Schwedes, Randall Hill, Freddy Banks and of course the RBs like Tony Nathan and Lo Hampton, and many others.

4. I, too, was a "direct witness". I became a fan Christmas Day 1971 while watching the "Longest Game" in Philadelphia. My first Dolphins game in the Orange Bowl was in Sept. 1973. I wanted to see the 49ers TE Ted Kwalick, newly drafted from Penn St. John Brody was their QB that day. I have been there for the hellish parking in Little Havana and tailgating at JRS. I read about the "ancient history" too, and was an eyewitness to much of it. I'm not interested in your arrogant pronouncements.

Rick

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: dolphan4545 ()
Date: January 26, 2014 10:07AM

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still am proud to be a Dolphin's Fan...always
> will be, no matter what.

Me too!

Rick

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 26, 2014 11:52AM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 26, 2014 12:05PM

I guess I'm not statistically blessed but it occurred to me that a simple way of putting it is that from 1974 when Nat Moore joined us until 1992 when the Mark Brothers left....18 years .....of all that time, they played together from only 1983 to 1986.

That's only 3 years out of 18.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: Anemone1 ()
Date: January 26, 2014 12:31PM

ChryenB - Just watch the video highlights that Berk posted. Clayton was the prototypical deep threat (albeit a bit small). His first couple of years he averaged more ypc than Duper. He had breakaway speed. A possession receiver is the guy you want to throw to on 3rd and long that can get the 1st down, but they are not usually a threat to take it to the house or get behind the D. OJ McDuffie was the classic possession receiver - great hands, knows where the 1st down marker is, and is able to get open, but not particularly fast, and opposing Ds didn't usually have to worry about him getting behind them.

The thing about Marino's early years is that they rarely faced 3rd and long, so there wasn't a huge need for a classic "possession" receiver. That role was filled early by Nat Moore, but also by the TEs and running backs.

Both Duper and Clayton put the fear of God into the opposing DBs, and it became a game of "pick your poison" over who got double covered.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 26, 2014 12:50PM

Anemone, I see your point.

The first thing that threw me off when I was first challenged was the statement that Nat Moore was the possession receiver and I knew that Moore was ending his career when the Marks Brothers started. So most of it was directed to that.

Moreover, we used to think of Nat Moore as the blazer as an heir to that other great receiver that he played with briefly and overlapped slightly, Paul Warfield.

When I started following the Dolphins, Paul Warfield was the deep threat and Howard Twilley was basically the possession receiver.

To me the classic possession receiver is the slower guy who can get open within 10 to 20 yards. Wes Welker. If you look at Howard Twilley's career numbers they are 212 recs for 3064 yards, about 14.3 or so yards per catch.

Now if you would look at those numbers, you would say they were not that far off from Clayton's at 15.2 or so. You mean to tell me Howard Twilley was a deep threat speed receiver? No.

Stats sometimes tell the story, sometimes not.

What's the name of the guy who is the NEW WES WELKER at New England, Edelman?????

Another class possession receiver.

To me a possession receiver is the one you expect to be wide open WHEN MOST OF THE SECONDARY IS CONCENTRATING ON THE BLAZER (WALLACE OR MARSHALL) TEARING THE HELL DOWN THE FIELD.

That guy was Howard Twilley in Nat Moore's heyday.

and it was Clayton when Duper was on the opposite side of the field.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: Anemone1 ()
Date: January 26, 2014 01:07PM

I see your point ChryenB, but in reality both Duper and Clayton were always wide open (it seemed). They were like the #1 and #1A receivers, sort of like Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt with the Rams during their "Greatest Show on Turf" years. I think Clayton did have more opportunities because of the 2, most teams chose to double cover Duper, and Clayton became a mismatch for whatever poor soul tried covering him. Throw in Nat Moore and a TE or RB, and it became impossible for the other team to cover all of them.

Side note, and a reference to the '85 Bears game: Shula, in one of his more brilliant moves, decided to line up Nat Moore at tight end for the entire Bears game, knowing that he would be covered by a LB, and even at his age, no LB could cover Nat Moore. The Bears had no answer to this, and Moore had a big game against the Bears.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: jsm08 ()
Date: January 26, 2014 01:16PM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 26, 2014 02:01PM

LOL. overly complicated way of saying they only played 3 years together.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: dolphan4545 ()
Date: January 27, 2014 12:37PM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 27, 2014 07:22PM


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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 27, 2014 08:43PM

Anemone1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Side note, and a reference to the '85 Bears game:
> Shula, in one of his more brilliant moves, decided
> to line up Nat Moore at tight end for the entire
> Bears game, knowing that he would be covered by a
> LB, and even at his age, no LB could cover Nat
> Moore. The Bears had no answer to this, and Moore
> had a big game against the Bears.

I remember that game. It preserved our record of the only team to have an undefeated record.

Had we lost that game, the Bears, who went on to win the Super Bowl that year with the "Super Bowl Shuffle" would have been the SECOND team to have a perfect record.

Since then, the Patsies are the only other team to come close. The difference between the two was that WE stopped the Bears. The Patsies had to be stopped in the SuperBowl and although they had a perfect 16-0 regular season, they did not cap it off with a SuperBowl.

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Date: January 27, 2014 11:00PM

How a QB like Marino was kept from getting a Ring just KILLS me. Its almost criminal of Shula of not being able to give him a winning cast around him. criminal. And to watch that buck toothed jack ass Elway go for a third ring from the booth really pisses me off. Go SEAHAWKS!

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

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Re: we weren't always a joke
Posted by: dolphan4545 ()
Date: January 28, 2014 08:42AM

Would you mind if I ask you how I should phrase something next time before I post?
Arguing with you is a total waste of my time - which I suppose is something lawyers count on.
Do not fool yourself into believing that I won't call you out when I think you are wrong, however. I imagine I'll do that fairly often. Though I may forget to run it by you occasionally.

Rick

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