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          Torry Holt
Miami Dolphins Civilized Discussion :  Phins.com Phorums The fastest message board... ever.
This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
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Torry Holt
Posted by: tsstamper ()
Date: February 11, 2009 09:55AM

I just read that the Rams were shopping Holt and Pace at the Sr. Bowl for 3rd round picks. I also read that their new coach may favor getting rid of their salary (even releasing them outright) in order to have more cap room available to build the defense with FA acquisitions.

We took a flyer last year by trading a 4th round pick for Akin Ayodele and Tony Fasano. I would think a 4th rounder would be something I would be willing to part with for the services of Holt. Until last year - when the Rams were an absolute disaster - he was good for 80+ catches and about 1200+ yards every single season. Certainly his most productive years were 2000-2005 when he picked up 1300-1700 yards every year and hit double-digit TDs several times. But, I think he's still very effective and could be an absolutely wonderful mentor to our younger receivers.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: February 11, 2009 10:37AM

Holt will be 33 next year, so he may have a couple of years left. He's been remarkably durable and productive in his career; but he's slowing down. I think he would be a great #2 WR for a team in search of a #2 WR. I'm just not sure that we are such a team.

Pace will turn 34 next season. He missed 8 games in 2006; 15 games in 2007; and 2 games in 2008. I do think that the Rams will cut Pace. The team stinks; Pace's cap number is high; he's getting old; and he's been hurt a lot over the past 3 years. Based on talent alone, Pace would be an intriguing option, but his health is a real concern. Regardless of the Pace situation, I would like to see the Phins and Carey agree to a new contract.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2009 10:44AM by Northeast Fin Fan.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: tsstamper ()
Date: February 11, 2009 11:12AM

I think he is slowing down, as his YPC have pretty much dropped every year from 19.9 in 2000 to 12.4 last year. However, I think he would bring a ton to our receiving corps anyway. Although his measurables are remarkably similar to Camarillo and Bess, he seems like a much larger target. Bess seems to be best suited for the slot, WR screens, shallow crossing patterns, etc. Camarillo reminds me most of the type of WR that Holt is. However, I think Holt probably has forgotten more about playing WR than our entire corps knows. I think he could teach them a lot about getting open, being in synch with the QB, etc.

I'm more inclined to believe that he has a couple more years in the tank than to believe that last year's performance is his new 'norm', given the mess that the Rams were last year.

On Pace, I love the talent, but I'll bet another team sees past the health issues more than the Phins will and is willing to pay more than we would.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: February 11, 2009 11:30AM

I don't know why Pace doesn't retire.

Holt has lost a step according to reports but I don't know if you can believe that. His offense has been terrible and he couldn't have been very motivated. He has been pretty durable but I would not say remarkably. He has played a full 16 games 3 times in his career.

I'm sure they will both be cut. No one is going to trade for those big arse salaries. Holt's cap hit is over 10 million.

Holt is going into his 11th season. Jerry Rice's best season was his 11th...1848 yards. Isaac Bruce's 11 season was 1,292 yards. Rod Smith 1,108 yards. Jimmy Smith 1,172 yards and he was 35.

He may still be worth 3 or 4 mil a year for a one year deal.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: DaytonaDolfan13 ()
Date: February 11, 2009 11:44AM

I'll pass.

And if you're talking about TRADING the #122 choice for I smoking smiley highly seasoned veteran, here's a look at the players we may take in the 4th.

TE TRAVIS BECKHAM
S KEVIN ELLISON
WR MOHAMMED MASSAQUI


I'll take any of these ROOKIES instead.

"Don't tell me about the pain, show me the baby." - BP

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: noetic ()
Date: February 11, 2009 11:58AM

I'm not sure how I feel about giving up a pick for a 33 year old receiver, even if it is only a 4th rounder. He would definitely be a good fit for the team, but I'm not sure what implications that would have on the rest of our receivers. The roster would seem to be:

Ginn
Holt
Camarillo
Bess
London
Wilford

As far as I can tell, Parcells isn't ready to pull the plug on the Ginn debacle quite yet. We're certainly not getting rid of Bess or Camarillo, as they're clearly our best receivers, and Wilford would be too expensive to cut this season. So that leaves London looking in from the outside, which I think would be a shame because he showed a lot of potential.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: tsstamper ()
Date: February 11, 2009 01:29PM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: February 11, 2009 01:32PM

Ginn debacle? Bess and Camarillo - clearly our best receivers? We can't play just slot receivers. Someone needs to stretch the field.

Look at the great WRs listed above. Most great WRs take two or three years to deveop.
Rod Smith - first two seasons combined - 392 yards and 3 TD
Jimmy Smith - had a grand total of 288 yards and 3 TDs in his first 4 years (yes 4) coming out of college
Ginn has 1210 yards in 2 years plus 7 TD's and he came out of college a year early. Not to mention the fact that his rookie year was wasted by some of the worst QB play in the NFL in recent memory.

It's been said by many on this board: the majority of WR's in the NFL take 2 or 3 years to develop. The stats back that up. (Rice and Bruce - perhaps the two best WR's ever - are exceptions) Ginn is developing just fine. He had a very productive year, was a key part of a number of our wins, and continues to improve -despite not having a QB that plays to his strengths.

Anyway, back on Holt. When the Rams offense was working well, everything was based on timing. Holt ran clean routes and was always where he was supposed to be. When the line held up and the QB delivered the ball in rhythm and accurately, Holt was a big-time WR. He was a great route runner and had great hands. (It was just the opposite of the Cowboys offense where guys just run around and try to get open or make a play.) However, for the last couple of years, the Rams line has been putrid, Bulger has struggled, Jackson (RB ) has been hurt, and the whole offense has suffered as a result. If Holt can come in and be a difference maker that would be fantastic. I'm just not sure he still has that in him. I wouldn't bring him in to be a #2 WR. There are better ways to use our cap space.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2009 05:18PM by Northeast Fin Fan.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: noetic ()
Date: February 11, 2009 02:01PM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: February 11, 2009 02:17PM

Always gotta be a smart arse. You can't just make a comment without trying to demean someone can you? I'm pretty sure you knew he meant a WR to stretch the field and I'm sure he knows the difference between a track star and a receiver.

WHEN Holt gets cut it would be worth a shot. Wilford got a 4 year 13 mil contract with a 6 mil bonus. So 3.2 million a year for Holt is a bargain. Sign him to a 3 year 9 mil deal with a 2 mil bonus.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: February 11, 2009 04:29PM

Pick apart one sentence you don't like and ignore the rest of the post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2009 05:19PM by Northeast Fin Fan.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: noetic ()
Date: February 11, 2009 06:55PM

A man is not defined by what he could be, but rather by what he has done.

I'm simply tired of all the excuses. People keep using terms like 'stretching the field' and 'years to develop'. People blame a QB who finished second in MVP votes. People blame his complimentary receivers. People blame the opposing defensive coordinators for the double-coverage. People blame the offensive line, the play calling, the water boy, the cheerleaders, the gentle breeze, the humidity, the field...

How about blaming Ted Ginn for what Ted Ginn has failed to do?

You bring up lists of guys who made it big after a few very unimpressive years early in their career. For every guy like that, there's 100 who never broke out of that slump, and there are just as many guys who hit the ground running and lit the league on fire right out of college. In fact, here are a few worthless statistics of my own:

Randy Moss (Rookie Year) ------ 1300 yds - 17 TD
Jerry Rice (Second Year) -------- 1570 yds - 15 TD
Anquan Boldin (Rookie Year) ---- 1377 yds - 8 TD
Marques Colston (Rookie Year) -- 1038 yds - 8 TD

Ted Ginn no longer deserves a free pass. That time has come and gone. Nobody here is this lenient with any other player we have. What if Henne started as a rookie and had two terrible years? What if Jake Long gave up a plethora of sacks? What if Ronnie never came back from his knee injury? Would you be this patient with them? Would you blame those around them? I doubt it.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: February 12, 2009 02:46AM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: RW13 ()
Date: February 12, 2009 04:05AM

If people went by your logic, then QB's like Aikman, both the Manning brothers and lots of others would not have made it in the NFL. You clearly don't no much about football, if you believe what you say. Some players come right out of college and excell right away. They are few and far between. Most college players take time and when I say most I'm talking 80-90 percent of them. Do some research before posting such absurd comments.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: February 12, 2009 04:40AM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: tsstamper ()
Date: February 12, 2009 05:15AM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: noetic ()
Date: February 12, 2009 09:12AM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: February 12, 2009 10:20AM

I got as far as "dumb this down" and realized that I don't need to be insulted any further.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: February 12, 2009 11:25AM

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

These are not excuses, they are historical facts. MOST WR's do not go over 1000 yards or do well in their rookie and 2nd years. Plain and simple.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: February 12, 2009 11:28AM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: noetic ()
Date: February 12, 2009 01:28PM

I should never have compiled that list, even though I was doing it to show how stupid it is to compare Ginn to other rookie receivers.

I go to as many games as I can during the season, and each year I make it down to Miami at least four or five times. Every time I watch Ginn play I just shake my head. He's stunningly fast, and he's bulked up a little, which is good...but he just doesn't seem to care.

He's constantly giving up on plays. He stands still when the play is on the other side of the field. He doesn't move to get open when his route breaks down. He very obviously goes half speed when he knows the ball isn't coming his way. He makes very questionable decisions. He constantly runs routes shy of the first down markers. He drops balls. He had more fumbles than receiving TDs last year, and he seems tries to avoid contact like the plague.

I don't question his physical skills. I just question his determination. He's not going to break out because he doesn't want it bad enough, not because he's physically unable to.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: February 12, 2009 01:35PM

interesting observation....

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2009 02:28PM by eesti.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 12, 2009 02:06PM

screw torry holt seriously I PREY TO GOD we dont waist money on his geriactric butt. look we will get either hanesworth, scott, or peppers prob peppers. and we will get pat white first round unless we can work a nice deal with vick. using the wildcat formation either of thos two qb's would make our team PHENOMINAL. and with chad pennington there for regular play not only would he take less physical punishment, he can also teach em how to become a solid passer. and chad henne will be nice in about two years and we will REVOLUTIONIZE the 2 qb system.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: February 12, 2009 04:46PM

Parcells/Ireland/Sparano will put up with a young player making mistakes. There is no way that they would put up with a guy going half speed / not wanting to get better. If that were true, he would have been benched.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: February 12, 2009 05:59PM

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Parcells/Ireland/Sparano will put up with a young
> player making mistakes. There is no way that they
> would put up with a guy going half speed / not
> wanting to get better. If that were true, he
> would have been benched.


That's why Wilford rode the bench most of the season.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: February 12, 2009 06:49PM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: RW13 ()
Date: February 12, 2009 07:37PM

Sorry I didn't us the word know correctly! And have you ever noticed how Marvin Harrison seems to try to avoid contact? The small WR's always last longer when they do. I don't have a problem with him doing that, unless the game is on the line and we need the first down or TD. But, when he catches a ball for a 12 yard gain and is about to get crushed by the safety, then by all means get down. We need you for the rest of the game and season for that matter. He is not built like Boldin or Fitzgerald, so he can't take that kind of punishment.

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 13, 2009 12:12AM

here we go again who you perfere mister all knowing? who you want in first round. we use the wing back formation get over it we use it and frankly if we passed more in it, well you see what happens when we do so why not get a decent passer who can also run the crap out of the ball? wow makes sense to me we got 2 COUNT EM 2 second rounders and a 3 4 5 and a couple of 7's to go after oline and cb's and safties. the free agent pool IS HUGE this year so come on we got the money dont be numb

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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: noetic ()
Date: February 13, 2009 06:30AM


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Re: Torry Holt
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: February 13, 2009 06:37AM

They certainly could have started Bess earlier in the year if Ginn was dogging it. You did say that Bess is clearly better than Ginn. So if Ginn was dogging it and Bess is clearly better than him anyway, why wouldn't they have started Bess earlier in the year?

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