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          Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Miami Dolphins Civilized Discussion :  Phins.com Phorums The fastest message board... ever.
This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
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Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 22, 2013 06:20AM

the truth wrote: I think kaepernick has the skills to be a pocket passer.

I think he might have more skill to be a pocket passer than RG111.....JMO.

He has a cannon for an arm.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: mizzou15 ()
Date: January 22, 2013 07:12AM

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes but I think that you are missing my point.
> Everyone on this board and media think that just
> because a guy can run that means that he cant
> pass. This might surprise you but I hope that the
> league figures out this "pistol" nonsences.
> Wilons, colin, cam and expecially RG3 are
> legitamate "passers" and should not be treated
> like gimics.
>
> The coaching staff should be using there running
> ability to compliment there ability to pass.
> Instead this new offenses force them to run as if
> they cant pass.
>
> wildcat: we are not talking about a running back
> passing the ball we are talking about legitamate
> passers passing the ball... huge difference.
>
> So my point is 1) these guys CAN beat you with
> there arms, if you dont believe that then I would
> have to say you have not watched them play (yes
> ATL stopped running lanes and colin still beat
> them with his arm) 2) More importantly why is Luck
> not considered a "running qb" when he runs just as
> much as the other 4 AND has worst passing numbers?
> Seems rather selective huh...


Anyone who watched Wilson and RG III play in college know that they are passing qb's. I think these guys (especially RG III) have to make the stand and show these guys that they are passers. If I were RG III I would not run 'designed qb run plays'.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: KB ()
Date: January 22, 2013 07:17AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > 200 yards a game running? REALLY? Kapernick
> only
> > rushed for 400 yards ALL YEAR (playing in 13
> games
> > and starting 9 and he was 30th on the passing
> > yards TD list).
>
> Kaepernick rushed for 181 yards (close enough?) in
> the game against the Packers.


?!?!? Come on read your comment, as I read it, you were arguing that the reason Kapernick wasn't at the top of the passing stats was because he 'Runs for 200 yards a game'. He doesn't. That was ONE game. Over the year he averaged less than 40 yards per game 'rushing'.


> >
> > And above you said Luck was 'One of these QB's'
> > lol. He had like 200 yards rushing ALL YEAR.
>
> Again, you guys JUST CAN'T GRASP the distinction
> between what I called a "running QB" being one who
> is a rusher and one who can change a covered
> passing play into a gain with his feet.
>
> I'll bet you are completely lost when you hear the
> announcers talking about the need to contain
> Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick when the
> passing play is covered.
>
> You are stuck with thinking that these are the ole
> wishbone days.
>
> That's not what this new breed is.
>

That's not what I'm saying at all. Steve Young didn't run the Wishbone and is the second leading rushing QB EVER. But he also passed better than he ran. THAT is why he was successful.

>
> >
> > There have ALWAYS been QB's who CAN run. Elway
> > not only is on the top 5 list of all time
> rushing
> > QB's but he is also in the top 5 all time
> passing.
> > Same for Tarkenton. They played 30-40 years
> ago
> > ChyrenB. I know we old guys lose track of time
> > spinning smiley sticking its tongue out.But your assertion that there is some 'new
> > breed' of QB that will take over the game is
> > crazy.
>
> RESPONSE: Fran was not a runner but a "SCRAMBLER."
> There is a BIG difference. A scrambler usually
> does not even rush FOR A SINGLE YARD. He runs
> around in the backfield and avoids getting sacked
> UNTIL HIS RECEIVERS GET OPEN AND THEN HE NAILS THE
> PASS.
>
> THAT'S WHY FRAN was at the top of passing.
>
> But Fran Tarkenton was NO WAY the same as Cam
> Newton, Russell Wilson, RGIII, or Colin
> Kaepernick.
>
> He brought time with his legs IN ORDER TO GET THE
> PASS OFF, NOT TO GAIN YARDAGE.

A scrambler 'usually doesn't even rush for a single yard', doesn't 'GAIN YARDAGE' ?!?!?! Tarkenton is #4 in QB rushing yards ALL TIME.


>
> Elway, like Luck who he often has been compared
> with (BTW since you consider Luck a pocket passer)
> was just a guy ahead of his time and Cam Newton
> was the next coming of his type. So, Just because
> you had one what I call "running qb" in 1983, does
> not mean either that 1) Elway played the position
> the same way they did before the forward pass was
> invented OR 2) that guys like Elway have been
> around SINCE Elway.
>
>
> >
> > The guys you are talking about like RGIII,
> Newton
> > and to a lesser degree Kapernick and Wilson run
> > better than they pass.
>
> RESPONSE: But the point is, they pass when it is
> open and when it is not open, they ARE NOT
> CONFINED TO SIMPLY THROWING THE BALL OUT OF BOUNDS
> LIKE TOM BRADY DOES.
>
> THEY have a second option. They can hurt you with
> their feet.
>
> Prior to the coming of this breed, coaches would
> tell them, "If it's not there, throw the ball into
> the cheap seats and protect yourself."
>
> Colin and Russell and Ryan Tannehill and yes, to a
> great extent Luck, don't do that. If they can get
> a first with their feet, they take off.
>


This is silly, QB's have ALWAYS picked up the first down if they could with their feet. Brady had 4 rushing TD's this year. only 1 less than Mr. Kapernick.

>
> They are young guys with
> > dynamic personalities (or lots of tattos lol!)
> so
> > they make the news and the highlight reels, but
> > they are NOT elite NFL passers and for that
> reason
> > when their legs go (sooner than later) they are
> > average. Cunningham was that way, Vick is that
> > way.
>
>
> RESPONSE: Being in prison had just a teensy
> weensy bit to do with Vick's lack of longevity
> rather than his style of play or any injury to
> him.

Actualy Vick had one of his best years statistically the first year he started AFTER he came back. It was the FIRST time in his carer he threw for over 3000 yards. Look it up...


>
> Randall Cunningham was never really known as a
> running quarterback. He was athletic and small
> and frail but his style of football was far more
> like James Harris of the Rams than it was like
> Michael Vick or RGIII. He was a traditional drop
> back passing quarterback for the most part.

OK, this is the loopiest comment of all. 'Randall Cunningham was never really known as a
running quarterback.' ??????????? Dude, Cunningham is #1 ALL TIME in yards as a rushing QB by a good margin. WHAT are you talking about?


>
> They both rank in the top 5 rushing all time
> > but are 36th and 97th respectively in passing
> > yards.
> >
> > As long as there are receivers and the forward
> > pass is legal throwing skills will matter more
> > than running skills in an NFL QB.
>
> RESPONSE: Can a quarterback make it without
> having an accurate passing arm??? ABSOLUTELY NOT
> and nobody on this board has said so.
>
> Only you guys who are on the other side of the
> issue have said that.
>
> But Russell Wilson IS DAMN ACCURATE! Remember
> that pass against the Packers at the end of a game
> in the regular season against the
> Packers???????????? That was a 40 yard bomb he
> threw on the dead run, regardless of who you think
> caught it.
>

SO now hail Mary's are examples of 'accurate' throws? <facepalm>

> Same thing for Colin Kaepernick, same thing for
> RGIII, Same thing for Ryan Tannehill.
>
> Let me ask you a question.
>
> Do you really mean to tell me you can't see the
> difference between Ryan Tannehill (FORGET THE
> PASS, JUST TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE ROLLS OUT OF THE
> POCKET) and the multitude of quarterbacks we have
> had after Marino.
>
> Don't you even see the run threat dimension he
> has?

Eh, Dante Culperrer had one too. drinking smiley And no I really DON'T see a difference yet. We are STILL at the bottom of the league in passing stats.

>
> No, it's you who is stuck back in 1983 because you
> really can't see the difference between Cam Newton
> and this new breed of quarterbacks and all the
> guys who existed between him and John Elway and
> John Elway and the guys who came before him.

Yes I wish I were in 1983 again lol!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2013 07:25AM by KB.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 22, 2013 09:11AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 22, 2013 09:38AM

Sorry chren but i remember cunningham and he was mobile as hell..

Count me in for saying he was as mobile as RG3 or at least close to it. I saw him run some incredible plays.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 22, 2013 09:44AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: KB ()
Date: January 22, 2013 09:51AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > ?!?!? Come on read your comment, as I read it,
> > you were arguing that the reason Kapernick
> wasn't
> > at the top of the passing stats was because he
> > 'Runs for 200 yards a game'. He doesn't. That
> > was ONE game. Over the year he averaged less
> than
> > 40 yards per game 'rushing'.
>
> RESPONSE: No, I was simply saying that the more a
> quarterback runs in a given game, the more his
> passing yardage is going to go down and VICE
> VERSA. WHEN A QUARTERBACK DOES NOT HAND OFF, he
> can only do two things, run or pass. The more he
> does one, the less he does the other in a given
> game.
>
> The more these mobile qbs today run, the less
> their passing statistics are going to be.
>
>
>
> > That's not what I'm saying at all. Steve
> Young
> > didn't run the Wishbone and is the second
> leading
> > rushing QB EVER. But he also passed better
> than
> > he ran. THAT is why he was successful.
>
> RESPONSE: Again, you are misinterpreting me. I
> used the word "wishbone" because SINCE THE DAYS
> THAT THE FORWARD PASS WAS FIRST INVENTED, THAT was
> the brief time in history (and it was only run in
> college) that you might find the quarterback
> taking the ball from center and running it (if he
> did not dish it off).
>
> That was just a brief reference meant only to
> denote that football started out as a running game
> ONLY. Then the forward pass was invented. Then
> there were always scrambling QBs who mainly
> scrambled behind the line of scrimmage in order to
> allow their receivers to get free. Then there
> briefly came the wishbone wherein QBs would run
> the ball. Then there was a return to the pocket
> passer. Now there is this new breed of QBs, one
> of which is Tannehill, that are not traditional
> pocket passers.
>
> If you guys think that Tannehill is closer to Bob
> Griese or Dan Marino than he is to RGIII or
> Kaepernick, then I disagree.
>
> >
> > A scrambler 'usually doesn't even rush for a
> > single yard', doesn't 'GAIN YARDAGE' ?!?!?!
> > Tarkenton is #4 in QB rushing yards ALL TIME.
>
> RESPONSE: Yeah, but you're talking about an era
> in which quarterbacks usually stay in the pocket
> and don't run at all.
>
> Sure on some of the scrambles, he may pass the
> line of scrimmage.
>
> Sure he's going to pile up more career yardage
> than the Bob Grieses and Dan Marino's.
>
> Is it any wonder??????
>
>
> > This is silly, QB's have ALWAYS picked up the
> > first down if they could with their feet.
> Brady
> > had 4 rushing TD's this year. only 1 less than
> > Mr. Kapernick.
>
> RESPONSE: Now who's being silly? Of course, no
> one means to say that even a Bob Griese does not
> occasionally in goal line stands fake the hand off
> and then run in.
>
> If you live your whole life in statistics, KB,
> you'll never see the big picture. It is a form of
> autism to just dwell in the numbers and not be
> able to translate them into real life.
>
> It ends up in ridiculous conclusions like you just
> drew that Brady is as mobile as Kaepernick.
> LOL!!!!!!!!
> > Actualy Vick had one of his best years
> > statistically the first year he started AFTER
> he
> > came back. It was the FIRST time in his carer
> he
> > threw for over 3000 yards. Look it up...
>
> RESPONSE: Again, you are addressing a different
> point. You were talking about the LONGEVITY of
> Michael Vicks career and now you come up with
> talking about his best year.
>
> Obviously a guy's best year is likely to be LATER
> IN HIS CAREER (whether that was broken up by a
> prison term in the middle or not).
>
> But the LONGEVITY OF A GUYS career takes into
> account the length of time between when he first
> signs as a pro and when he hangs it up.
>
> So what do you think Michael Vick would have
> accomplished in his prime, (immediately after his
> first few season) had he NOT GONE TO PRISON.
>
> > OK, this is the loopiest comment of all.
> 'Randall
> > Cunningham was never really known as a
> > running quarterback.' ??????????? Dude,
> > Cunningham is #1 ALL TIME in yards as a rushing
> QB
> > by a good margin. WHAT are you talking about?
>
> RESPONSE: So Randall Cunningham was just as much
> of a threat to run the ball than Kaepernick or
> RGIII?????????????
>
> Dude, you are talking about a guy who was
> considered MOBIL IN AN ERA IN WHICH OTHER
> QUARTERBACKS WERE ABSOLUTE STIFFS!!!!!
>
> You can't compare that with today's new breed.
>
> And the fact that he has the record of the number
> 1 yardage rushing NOW, NOW, NOW, NOW, AT THIS
> PRECISE SECOND, (when the most of history has
> Cunningham competing with the Bob Grieses of
> history) may be true.
>
> Look at those stats in three years when
> Kaepernick, RGIII, Tannehill, Luck and the other
> guys have had a few more years behind center.
>
> You kids spend so much time in stats, you don't
> take a step back, a deep breath, and look at the
> big picture.
> > SO now hail Mary's are examples of 'accurate'
> > throws?
>
> RESPONSE: Did you see that pass? It was not a
> Hail Mary. His receiver was alone at the spot and
> was THEN JOINED BY THE DEFENDER WHO TRIED TO STRIP
> THE BALL FROM HIM.
>
> You should watch the film again (on nfl.com) and
> see that it was not just thrown into the endzone
> and a jump up and grab in a crowd occurred. That's
> a Hail Mary.
>
> >
>
> > Eh, Dante Culperrer had one too. drinking smiley And no I
> > really DON'T see a difference yet. We are
> STILL
> > at the bottom of the league in passing stats.
>
> RESPONSE: Again with stats! If you can't see how
> effective Tannehill will be EVEN IN PASSING
> without that extra running threats he presents, I
> don't know what to say.
>
> And he has no deep threat TODAY!
>
> That's why it is silly to rely on stats!
>
> If we rely on stats, we might as well get rid of
> Tannehill.
>
> Since Tanny has no deep threat, they flood the
> short zones.
>
> When he gets a legitimate deep threat at WR come
> back and talk to me about those stats./
>
>
> > Yes I wish I were in 1983 again lol!
>
> RESPONSE: So do I.

We could go on like this forever (and almost have lol!). I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I quote stats because they are quantitative measures of individual performance. What do these guys have in common. Farve, Marino, Brees, Brady, Elway, Manning? Top 10 Yards/TD PASSING STATS. You wouldn't want one of them in their prime over Russell Wilson or Mike Vick? Please. And to switch gears for a moment, "Tannehill doesn't have any stats because he doesn't have some speed burner receiver" is as big a myth as the 'New Breed' QB. What 'deep threat' do the Pats have? Welker? Old man Branch? Yet SOMEHOW that old pocket passer up there threw for nearly 5000 yards at 35 years old? Hmmm....

Those who can pass do, those who can't make excuses winking smiley

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 22, 2013 09:56AM

I rather have a pocket passer with great receivers and great Oline as opposed to a great scrambling QB.

youd be in serious jeopardy of getting injured most of the time. At least a higher percentage than the traditional pocket passer.

With nowdays 280 pound to 320 pound dlinemen to the current 270 pound linebacker. Count your playing days. RG 3 is counting them right now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: dolphin ()
Date: January 22, 2013 10:03AM

Wilson and Kapernick both very accurate. RT is NOT. he should go back to playing WR.

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Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 22, 2013 10:11AM

dolphin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wilson and Kapernick both very accurate. RT is
> NOT. he should go back to playing WR.


I WOUNDER what the poor people are doing today......

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: January 22, 2013 10:59AM

dolphin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wilson and Kapernick both very accurate. RT is
> NOT. he should go back to playing WR.

You know who's not accurate? YOU.

I think you should go back to doing whatever you were doing before you joined this board.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 22, 2013 11:15AM

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dolphin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wilson and Kapernick both very accurate. RT is
> > NOT. he should go back to playing WR.
>
> You know who's not accurate? YOU.
>
> I think you should go back to doing whatever you
> were doing before you joined this board.


BUFFing floors at the flea market.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: captkoi ()
Date: January 22, 2013 12:59PM

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> let's see who wins the game, pocket joe flacco or
> speedy kapernick.
>
> the game has totally changed from just 2 years
> ago, teams are designing their offenses around
> running QBs so maybe things are different now

***************************************************************

Not so sure about the game changing to running QBs. If we are talking of a QB who can move out of the pocket and run when he has to (A. Rodgers) then I have no problem with that. If we are talking about the RG IIIs of the world, then I don't think that trend will last very long. Why? Look at RG III. Will he come back from that knee injury, and if so, how effective will he be? vick was one of those guys -- he has played a full season ONCE in his whole NFL career.

Colin K. did very little running vs the Falcons on Sunday. His arm is what did it. Granted, the threat of him running slows down the rush, but his arm got the win, along with F. Gore, of course.

If these NFL teams go to the RG III types, it won't last long because these QBs will get injured and put a major dent in the team's progress.

Right now, the running QB is a novelty that has been successful this season. Other teams figure to go that way. As soon as another one or two QBs get taken out for the season, that fad will end.

Also, now that teams have had a chance to study this type of play, defenses will scheme to stop it, and they will stop it. It always happens in football.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: captkoi ()
Date: January 22, 2013 01:20PM

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Miami Reppa Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes but I think that you are missing my point.
> > Everyone on this board and media think that
> just
> > because a guy can run that means that he cant
> > pass. This might surprise you but I hope that
> the
> > league figures out this "pistol" nonsences.
> > Wilons, colin, cam and expecially RG3 are
> > legitamate "passers" and should not be treated
> > like gimics.
> >
> > The coaching staff should be using there
> running
> > ability to compliment there ability to pass.
> > Instead this new offenses force them to run as
> if
> > they cant pass.
> >
> > wildcat: we are not talking about a running
> back
> > passing the ball we are talking about
> legitamate
> > passers passing the ball... huge difference.
> >
> > So my point is 1) these guys CAN beat you with
> > there arms, if you dont believe that then I
> would
> > have to say you have not watched them play (yes
> > ATL stopped running lanes and colin still beat
> > them with his arm) 2) More importantly why is
> Luck
> > not considered a "running qb" when he runs just
> as
> > much as the other 4 AND has worst passing
> numbers?
> > Seems rather selective huh...
>
> That's not what "everyone" believes Reppa.
>
> The last two years excluded, history shows that
> qb's who are not pocket passers have a very tough
> time becoming pocket passers once injuries or
> Father Time rob them of their elite mobility and
> force them to play from he pocket. History also
> shows that with rare exception, these more mobile
> guys fall off in production sooner than pocket
> passers.
>
> Perhaps this group is different. I, for one,
> think a couple of them will break the mold.
>
> RG3 was a pocket passer in college who could run.
> I think he can be that in the pros as well, even
> with injuries. I'm just not sure he can be a top
> 5 passer if injuries take away his mobility.
>
> I think kaepernick has the skills to be a picket
> passer.
>
> Newtons immaturity and intelligence worry me. He
> has the tools to be a picket passer but...
>
> Wilson would be Dave Kreig if you took away his
> wheels. Most of his big plays come outside the
> picket or when he's on the move. I think his
> production falls of dramatically if injuries
> forced him to be a pocket passer.

*********************************************************

I agree with you Truth, and a few of the other posters who disagree in that just because a QB can run means he can't pass. I, also, haven't seen any posts saying that.

Yes, these guys can beat teams with their arms. If they couldn't, I highly doubt they would be starters (i.e., Tebow). The players that were mentioned (above) are all legitimate passers that can run. No arguments, there. As far as the pistol goes, I mentioned this type of QB in one of my other posts, in that it's a new thing that was very successful this season in the NFL. Defenses will figure it out and shut it down. Plus, those QBs can really get hurt with the running (that isn't necessary), i.e., RG III. Use it as a means of getting away from the pass rush or running because there is nothing else, then that is OK; that's the way it has been forever, anyway. But to make that a part of the playbook, that's just asking for trouble. Don't forget, NFL defenders don't know how to tackle anymore, so these QBs have a higher probability of getting hurt.

Truth, I'm not sure what a "picket" passer is, but those pocket passers are not going to go away; in fact, they probably have a longer shelf-life. Sure, they can get hurt just as easily as a running QB, but they aren't opening themselves up to easy injuries.

Just to throw this out -- Griese did quite a bit of running in his early days. A serious injury against SD pretty much ended all the running around.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: Miami Reppa ()
Date: January 22, 2013 01:36PM

OK lets try this again... There is no law on how to play the qb position. The reality is a qb's job is three things 1) WIN THE GAME, 2) PROTECT THE FOOTBALL, 3) LEAD HIS TEAM. I dont think anywhere it says for a qb to be a "pure" pocket passer. If you like that then thats your perogative, but if a guy can pass and run then you SHOULD cater to ALL of his strengths...

EX) Kurt Warner is a "pure" pocket passer so what did the rams do, they would spread you out (4 receiver sets) and let him use his strenghts. That is not a pro style offense but no one was against it. Now if you have a mobile guy that can PASS and RUN then let him do what he does.

the truth wrote: I think kaepernick has the skills to be a pocket passer.
REPPA: All of these guys have the skill set to be pocket passers, except they can all run as well, thats my point


SAMSAM3738 wrote: I think keapernick might have more skill to be a pocket passer than RG111.....JMO
REPPA: Yes this is your opinion and even if he is why does that matter? Where does it say that pocket passing is the way to go?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: THE Truth ()
Date: January 22, 2013 01:39PM

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Miami Reppa Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Yes but I think that you are missing my point.
>
> > > Everyone on this board and media think that
> > just
> > > because a guy can run that means that he cant
> > > pass. This might surprise you but I hope
> that
> > the
> > > league figures out this "pistol" nonsences.
> > > Wilons, colin, cam and expecially RG3 are
> > > legitamate "passers" and should not be
> treated
> > > like gimics.
> > >
> > > The coaching staff should be using there
> > running
> > > ability to compliment there ability to pass.
> > > Instead this new offenses force them to run
> as
> > if
> > > they cant pass.
> > >
> > > wildcat: we are not talking about a running
> > back
> > > passing the ball we are talking about
> > legitamate
> > > passers passing the ball... huge difference.
> > >
> > > So my point is 1) these guys CAN beat you
> with
> > > there arms, if you dont believe that then I
> > would
> > > have to say you have not watched them play
> (yes
> > > ATL stopped running lanes and colin still
> beat
> > > them with his arm) 2) More importantly why is
> > Luck
> > > not considered a "running qb" when he runs
> just
> > as
> > > much as the other 4 AND has worst passing
> > numbers?
> > > Seems rather selective huh...
> >
> > That's not what "everyone" believes Reppa.
> >
> > The last two years excluded, history shows that
> > qb's who are not pocket passers have a very
> tough
> > time becoming pocket passers once injuries or
> > Father Time rob them of their elite mobility
> and
> > force them to play from he pocket. History
> also
> > shows that with rare exception, these more
> mobile
> > guys fall off in production sooner than pocket
> > passers.
> >
> > Perhaps this group is different. I, for one,
> > think a couple of them will break the mold.
> >
> > RG3 was a pocket passer in college who could
> run.
> > I think he can be that in the pros as well,
> even
> > with injuries. I'm just not sure he can be a
> top
> > 5 passer if injuries take away his mobility.
> >
> > I think kaepernick has the skills to be a
> picket
> > passer.
> >
> > Newtons immaturity and intelligence worry me.
> He
> > has the tools to be a picket passer but...
> >
> > Wilson would be Dave Kreig if you took away his
> > wheels. Most of his big plays come outside the
> > picket or when he's on the move. I think his
> > production falls of dramatically if injuries
> > forced him to be a pocket passer.
>
> **************************************************
> *******
>
> I agree with you Truth, and a few of the other
> posters who disagree in that just because a QB can
> run means he can't pass. I, also, haven't seen any
> posts saying that.
>
> Yes, these guys can beat teams with their arms.
> If they couldn't, I highly doubt they would be
> starters (i.e., Tebow). The players that were
> mentioned (above) are all legitimate passers that
> can run. No arguments, there. As far as the
> pistol goes, I mentioned this type of QB in one of
> my other posts, in that it's a new thing that was
> very successful this season in the NFL. Defenses
> will figure it out and shut it down. Plus, those
> QBs can really get hurt with the running (that
> isn't necessary), i.e., RG III. Use it as a means
> of getting away from the pass rush or running
> because there is nothing else, then that is OK;
> that's the way it has been forever, anyway. But
> to make that a part of the playbook, that's just
> asking for trouble. Don't forget, NFL defenders
> don't know how to tackle anymore, so these QBs
> have a higher probability of getting hurt.
>
> Truth, I'm not sure what a "picket" passer is, but
> those pocket passers are not going to go away;


ha! a "picket" passer is the curse of typing long responses on an Iphone...smiling bouncing smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2013 05:14AM by THE Truth.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: captkoi ()
Date: January 22, 2013 01:47PM

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> captkoi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > THE Truth Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Miami Reppa Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Yes but I think that you are missing my
> point.
> >
> > > > Everyone on this board and media think that
> > > just
> > > > because a guy can run that means that he
> cant
> > > > pass. This might surprise you but I hope
> > that
> > > the
> > > > league figures out this "pistol" nonsences.
>
> > > > Wilons, colin, cam and expecially RG3 are
> > > > legitamate "passers" and should not be
> > treated
> > > > like gimics.
> > > >
> > > > The coaching staff should be using there
> > > running
> > > > ability to compliment there ability to pass.
>
> > > > Instead this new offenses force them to run
> > as
> > > if
> > > > they cant pass.
> > > >
> > > > wildcat: we are not talking about a running
> > > back
> > > > passing the ball we are talking about
> > > legitamate
> > > > passers passing the ball... huge
> difference.
> > > >
> > > > So my point is 1) these guys CAN beat you
> > with
> > > > there arms, if you dont believe that then I
> > > would
> > > > have to say you have not watched them play
> > (yes
> > > > ATL stopped running lanes and colin still
> > beat
> > > > them with his arm) 2) More importantly why
> is
> > > Luck
> > > > not considered a "running qb" when he runs
> > just
> > > as
> > > > much as the other 4 AND has worst passing
> > > numbers?
> > > > Seems rather selective huh...
> > >
> > > That's not what "everyone" believes Reppa.
> > >
> > > The last two years excluded, history shows
> that
> > > qb's who are not pocket passers have a very
> > tough
> > > time becoming pocket passers once injuries or
> > > Father Time rob them of their elite mobility
> > and
> > > force them to play from he pocket. History
> > also
> > > shows that with rare exception, these more
> > mobile
> > > guys fall off in production sooner than
> pocket
> > > passers.
> > >
> > > Perhaps this group is different. I, for one,
> > > think a couple of them will break the mold.
> > >
> > > RG3 was a pocket passer in college who could
> > run.
> > > I think he can be that in the pros as well,
> > even
> > > with injuries. I'm just not sure he can be
> a
> > top
> > > 5 passer if injuries take away his mobility.
> > >
> > > I think kaepernick has the skills to be a
> > picket
> > > passer.
> > >
> > > Newtons immaturity and intelligence worry me.
>
> > He
> > > has the tools to be a picket passer but...
> > >
> > > Wilson would be Dave Kreig if you took away
> his
> > > wheels. Most of his big plays come outside
> the
> > > picket or when he's on the move. I think his
> > > production falls of dramatically if injuries
> > > forced him to be a pocket passer.
> >
> >
> **************************************************
>
> > *******
> >
> > I agree with you Truth, and a few of the other
> > posters who disagree in that just because a QB
> can
> > run means he can't pass. I, also, haven't seen
> any
> > posts saying that.
> >
> > Yes, these guys can beat teams with their arms.
>
> > If they couldn't, I highly doubt they would be
> > starters (i.e., Tebow). The players that were
> > mentioned (above) are all legitimate passers
> that
> > can run. No arguments, there. As far as the
> > pistol goes, I mentioned this type of QB in one
> of
> > my other posts, in that it's a new thing that
> was
> > very successful this season in the NFL.
> Defenses
> > will figure it out and shut it down. Plus,
> those
> > QBs can really get hurt with the running (that
> > isn't necessary), i.e., RG III. Use it as a
> means
> > of getting away from the pass rush or running
> > because there is nothing else, then that is OK;
> > that's the way it has been forever, anyway.
> But
> > to make that a part of the playbook, that's
> just
> > asking for trouble. Don't forget, NFL
> defenders
> > don't know how to tackle anymore, so these QBs
> > have a higher probability of getting hurt.
> >
> > Truth, I'm not sure what a "picket" passer is,
> but
> > those pocket passers are not going to go away;
>
>
> ha! a "picket" passer is the cure of typing long
> responses on an Iphone...smiling bouncing smiley

********************************************

LOL.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 22, 2013 02:16PM

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry chren but i remember cunningham and he was
> mobile as hell..
>
> Count me in for saying he was as mobile as RG3 or
> at least close to it. I saw him run some
> incredible plays.


I agree he was mobile, but was he an RGIII or a Kaepernick, I don't agree that he was.

He was mobile compared to the stiffs of that day.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 22, 2013 02:35PM

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I agree with you Truth, and a few of the other
> posters who disagree in that just because a QB can
> run means he can't pass. I, also, haven't seen any
> posts saying that.

RESPONSE: But some posters have actually assumed that the RGIII's, the Tannehills, and the Kaepernicks will die out because they are not as good passers. (Probably that is at the root of the opinions of DolfanKing and Dolphin but moreso, some of the people that have pronounced RGIII as all but probably finished even if he does come back next year).

>
> Yes, these guys can beat teams with their arms.
> If they couldn't, I highly doubt they would be
> starters (i.e., Tebow).

RESPONSE: Thank you.


The players that were
> mentioned (above) are all legitimate passers that
> can run. No arguments, there. As far as the
> pistol goes, I mentioned this type of QB in one of
> my other posts, in that it's a new thing that was
> very successful this season in the NFL. Defenses
> will figure it out and shut it down.

RESPONSE: Maybe. They may have said the same thing about the forward pass in the 40's.

> Plus, those
> QBs can really get hurt with the running (that
> isn't necessary), i.e., RG III. Use it as a means
> of getting away from the pass rush or running
> because there is nothing else, then that is OK;
> that's the way it has been forever, anyway.

RESPONSE: That's what I've been saying.

But
> to make that a part of the playbook, that's just
> asking for trouble.

RESPONSE: I don't think it is. I think Kaepernick and RGIII run regular plays that call for them to roll out (like Tanny to a great extent) and they try to hit their target. If the linebackers overcommit to coverage, the QBs take off, if the Linebackers come to tackle the QB they pass. Good luck with teams figuring out how to stop that. The only way you can stop that is to make that QB not so athletic.


Don't forget, NFL defenders
> don't know how to tackle anymore, so these QBs
> have a higher probability of getting hurt.
>
> Truth, I'm not sure what a "picket" passer is, but
> those pocket passers are not going to go away; in
> fact, they probably have a longer shelf-life.
> Sure, they can get hurt just as easily as a
> running QB, but they aren't opening themselves up
> to easy injuries.

RESPONSE: I don't know where this "elevated injury risk" comes in with the possible exception of a greater risk of spraining your ankle while running.

>
> Just to throw this out -- Griese did quite a bit
> of running in his early days. A serious injury
> against SD pretty much ended all the running
> around.

RESPONSE: Now you are really getting into my area of expertise because I followed Bob Griese from college at Purdue to the NFL in the fall of 1967.

When Bob was at Purdue being coached by Jack Mollenkopf, he was a scrambler. He lost out on the Heisman to that guy from somewhere in Florida Steve Spurrier.

When he got to the Dolphins, Don Shula, who became the head coach in Griese's second year, immediately broke him of that scrambling and forced him to stay into the pocket.

The one exception was in the SuperBowl against the Dallas Cowboys as the announcers on the NFL Films stated when he "reverted to his scrambling past" for one play and ran back about 30 yards weaving from left to right until he was there tackled.

After that, he scrambled no more.


There was NO injury he suffered that changed his pocket style of passing, a style that Shula forced him into.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: JC ()
Date: January 23, 2013 04:25AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The one exception was in the SuperBowl against the
> Dallas Cowboys as the announcers on the NFL Films
> stated when he "reverted to his scrambling past"
> for one play and ran back about 30 yards weaving
> from left to right until he was there tackled.
>
>

UGH I remember that play vs Dallas. That sucked!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 23, 2013 05:39AM

Chren did you look at the video of cunningham that i posted..?

He looked incredibly mobile.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 23, 2013 09:24AM

I'm not saying he's not mobile. I'm saying he was no Kaepernick and he was no Russell Wilson.

Those clips are of a "scrambler" like Fran Tarkenton. Those plays are unlike Kaepernick or hell even Tannehill when he ball is snapped and he immediately rolls out and then 'THE GAME IS ON' which means that the defense's heart starts pounding and asking.............

"What's he gonna do? What's he gonna do!"

Those clips simply showed a Fran Tarkenton making the best of what he could of BROKEN PLAYS, BROKEN PLAYS, BROKEN PLAYS, BROKEN PLAYS.

Maybe if I say it enough times it will sink in.


Or maybe not.

Learn the difference between a scrambler and this new breed of quarterback.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 23, 2013 11:31AM

First of all kapernick or wilson are not up to cunninghams level yet..

They are not even close to the level that cunningham played at.

come on chren open your eyes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 23, 2013 11:33AM

And are you implying cunningham wasnt a scrambler?

You must be kiddin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 23, 2013 03:20PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: January 23, 2013 03:28PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 24, 2013 04:11AM

Chren remember i have to tranlate english words to spanish thats why i get confused sometimes with what i read.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 24, 2013 04:14AM

I understand Kaepernick has his team to the superbowl but have you taken a look at the supporting cast he has to help him out?

And he is really good of course.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: samsam3738 ()
Date: January 24, 2013 04:23AM

chrenb wrote: Define "up to level yet."


I mean cunningham at his prime was at a higher level than them at this point.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Running QB's cant make it to the superbowl...
Posted by: Miami Reppa ()
Date: January 24, 2013 11:26AM

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand Kaepernick has his team to the
> superbowl but have you taken a look at the
> supporting cast he has to help him out?
>
> And he is really good of course.


all superbowl qb's have really good supporting cast or they would not be there... the point still is that you dont have to be a pocket qb to win in this game and be successful. And just because you have the god given ability to use your feet you should not be look down upon for it when infact it makes you a greater threat. These are facts, ALL nfl defensive coordinators if asked would much rather face a pocket passer than a mobile guy that can beat you with his arm and his legs. On average mobile qb's are MUCH better than pocket qb's.

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