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          A PITCHBACK at the outside of
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This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 14, 2008 10:51AM

field goal range on 3rd down? What the hell is the offensive coordinator thinking?

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: December 14, 2008 10:54AM

It's not going to make a difference.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: jlyell13 ()
Date: December 14, 2008 10:58AM

We lucked out here, this could have cost us.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: PHINSKISS13 ()
Date: December 14, 2008 11:40AM

I hate pitching back becaue now you have to run an extra 5 yards just to get back to the line of scrimmage.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 14, 2008 12:00PM

I hated that call in that situation. A couple of yards would have made the FG that much easier, so if you want to run - call a safe run that can get you a few yards. Those pitch plays are usually either big yards or negative yards.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: December 14, 2008 12:03PM


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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: miamifann ()
Date: December 14, 2008 12:11PM

They ran two pitches prior and they broke for 10+ yards....

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 14, 2008 12:18PM

Not on 3rd down with a 5 point lead that late in the 4th quarter.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Miami Reppa ()
Date: December 14, 2008 12:26PM

I have said this several time that our coaching staff will stop us from making a strong push in the playoffs. If we are up by even 2 when we get inside the 40 yard line they start calling dive plays and bone head run plays. They keep playing not to lose. hello we have the most effiencent and careful qb in the league. He is not going to give it away he will take the sack first.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: December 14, 2008 12:29PM


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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 14, 2008 12:33PM

Brown lost 2 yards on the play.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 14, 2008 03:54PM

There were two other "brilliant" calls by offensive coordinators that cost us and almost cost us.

The first that cost us was the genius decision to have J.P. Lousyman attempt to pass while the Bills should have been running down as much of the clock as they could against the Jets.

The fumble raises the question of what the hell he was doing passing anyway. An old coach from the 50's used to say, "When you pass, three things can happen and two of them are bad." Even he was not recognizing the possibility of a fumble.

Secondly, we were almost cost the Pittsburgh-Balt game (we wanted Pitt) because of stupid decision of the Steelers Offensive Coordinators to spike the ball at the five yard line or so with about 1:03 on the clock and with Baltimore having two time outs left.

That left the Steelers with only two downs to make a touchdown.

Thanks to a bad call, the Steelers were given a touchdown on a pass although the Steeler receiver's feet were in the endzone and the ball never was (or certainly the receiver never got control of the ball until his momentum was taking him OUT of the endzone.) Luckily, the replay ref made the mysterious ruling that "The receiver had control of the ball with both feet in the endzone and therefore it was a touchdown." None of that matters unless the ball itself is in the endzone or has broken the plane of the goal line while the receiver has possession. All the replays shows that he bobbled the ball at first and got firm possession as his momentum pulled him out of the endzone.

Moreover, the bad call was a gift to the Ravens that kept on giving. It left the Ravens with 43 seconds on the clock and two timeouts. That run that the Steeler Offensive Coordinator spurned in favor of spiking the ball at the five yard line on first down would have taken about 20 seconds off the clock.

Luckily, the Steelers were able to stop the Ravens who had pretty damn good field position after the kickoff but no thanks to that bonehead decision to spike the ball on first and goal at the 5 yard line with a minute left in the game.

How do these guys keep their jobs or is upper management as stupid as they?

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: December 14, 2008 05:33PM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks to a bad call, the Steelers were given a
> touchdown on a pass although the Steeler
> receiver's feet were in the endzone and the ball
> never was (or certainly the receiver never got
> control of the ball until his momentum was taking
> him OUT of the endzone.) Luckily, the replay ref
> made the mysterious ruling that "The receiver had
> control of the ball with both feet in the endzone
> and therefore it was a touchdown." None of that
> matters unless the ball itself is in the endzone
> or has broken the plane of the goal line while the
> receiver has possession. All the replays shows
> that he bobbled the ball at first and got firm
> possession as his momentum pulled him out of the
> endzone.
>
Hmm. I always thought, on a pass, if the player's feet are in the endzone and he has the ball, then it's a TD...regardless of the location of the ball itself. It's the location of the receiver when he catches...not the ball. The ball matters on a running play.

That might be wrong, but that's the way I've always seen it enforced. What if the receiver is tiptoeing the corner of the endzone and the QB throws it a foot out of bounds? If the receiver catches the ball, is under control, and falls out of bounds...it's a TD. I've NEVER seen it called otherwise.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: December 14, 2008 07:08PM


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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 15, 2008 05:24PM

That brings up a second point.

Some say that the ball went into the endzone whereupon the receiver bobbled it and then got a firm grasp of it after his momentum had taken his hands containing the ball out of the endzone. According to those persons, he then did the equivalent of the "two feet statute" as he and the ball were falling back into the field of play. I guess Montequi would say that makes it exactly like your point that the ball went into the endzone (like a back of the endzone pass) and then the receiver got a firm grip on it while his feet were still inside the endzone but before he fell down.

Of course, some others say that the ball never broke the plane of the endzone anyway but that's just a question of what the facts were.

But even conceding that the ball had gone into the endzone and came back into the field of play when he fell down, I still agree with Phinsfan2 because in the back of the endzone case, when he freezes with the ball in his hands, he has control of the ball having never left the endzone himself.

On the other hand, in this situation, he bobbled the ball while it was in the endzone and when he got firm grasp of it, the ball was BACK IN THE FIELD OF PLAY and thus he never had possession of the ball while it was in the endzone where as the back of the endzone receiver had firm possession of the ball even though it was outside the field of play. Remember, the question was where you spot the ball.

In your scenario, Montequi, the ball cannot be spotted out of bounds so the question is a touchdown versus an incompleted pass. In the Pitts-Raven situation, there was no doubt it was a completed pass, but the question to me was where should the ball have been spotted when he got control. To me the answer was on the 9 inch yard line, not inside the goal line.

Let me create another hypothetical. A running back takes the ball at the 5 yard line and runs wide outside. About a few inches from the goal line, he is hit and the ball separates from him. His momentum takes him into the endzone WITHOUT the ball but he reaches back and grabs the ball which is still in mid-air AT ABOUT THE 10 INCH LINE IN THE FIELD OF PLAY. He is then hit from behind by a defender who is inside the endzone. He grasps the ball firmly with his feet inside the endzone but the ball still being on the 10 inch line. He and the ball then fall down inside the field of play.

In that case, the ball was never in the endzone with the runner having control. But under your theory of the player being in the endzone with possession of the ball (whether or not the ball was ever in the endzone), you would have to call that a touchdown but I doubt many would agree.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: December 15, 2008 05:43PM


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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: December 15, 2008 05:44PM

This is freakin' idiotic. I'm glad your not coaching.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 16, 2008 03:19AM

Well obviously you disagree with those who didn't like the call. That's fine. Some of us just think that a FG was very important at that time (SF was only 5 points behind and had been driving on us the entire second half) and running a play that took us out of our kicker's range was probably not the best play to run. I'm guesssing Sparano would run a different play in that situation next time around. I don't mind that you disagree.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2008 03:28AM by Northeast Fin Fan.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 17, 2008 04:52PM

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well obviously you disagree with those who didn't
> like the call. That's fine. Some of us just
> think that a FG was very important at that time
> (SF was only 5 points behind and had been driving
> on us the entire second half) and running a play
> that took us out of our kicker's range was
> probably not the best play to run. I'm guesssing
> Sparano would run a different play in that
> situation next time around. I don't mind that you
> disagree.


RESPONSE: But Ghotirule always minds when you disagree with him.

Wonder what will happen when he dies and comes to the shocking realization that HE IS NOT GOD AFTER ALL!

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: December 17, 2008 05:22PM

We were getting stuffed up the middle and gaining big yards on the pitch plays so I guess it's obvious we should have run it up the gut again???

Monday morning QB's is right Ghotirule!

We won...let it go.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Northeast Fin Fan ()
Date: December 18, 2008 01:19AM

Chyren's original post came immediately after the play...not on Monday. That's expressing his point of view not Monday morning QBing.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: December 18, 2008 05:44AM

doesnt't matter...it's all second guessing a very good coach. Hind sight is 20/20. He went with what was working and avoided what was not.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 18, 2008 09:57AM

Well, eesti, I guess you agree also with the fact that the Buffalo Bills were rigbt to have J.P. Losman back trying to pass when he was sacked and fumbled the ball whereupon Shaun Ellis picked it up and ran in FOR THE WINNING TOUCHDOWN THAT THE JETS WOULD HAVE HAD TO WORK HARD TO OBTAIN AFTER A BILLS PUNT EVEN IF THE BILLS HAD RUN THE BALL AND GOT STUFFED.

The problem with Ghotirule's logic is that he reasons like a "B" student whereas the rest of us reason like "A" students. The "B" student says simplistically, well, we had run the play all day and had had success SO WHY NOT DO IT AGAIN?

Well, had the score been tied and/or it had been the regular part of the game or not at the end of the game, then, of course, you run the play that HAS GAINED YOU the most success.

But the "A" students among us are trying to get it through your head that like the Bills-Jets situation, this was NOT the regular portion of the game. It was a situation where the Bills needed to keep possession and punt more than anything. IT WAS ALSO A SITUATION WHERE we had to obtain an 8 point lead so as a touchdown by the 49ers would not leave us with having to institute a drive of our own to either win or tie (depending on whether the 49ers went for 2 after they made a touchdown). We were in field goal range and had to stay in field goal range.

In that situation, eesti, it does not make sense to pitch the ball back 5 yards thereby EVEN RISKING taking your kicker out of field goal range and THUS RISK LOSING THE VITAL THREE POINTS WE NEEDED TO ENSURE THAT WE WOULD NOT LOSE.

So what if we GOT STUFFED? We then kick the field goal and force them to score a touchdown AND a 2 point conversion TO EVEN TIE AND GO INTO OVERTIME.

Let me give you some advice, eesti, Ghotirule is not that smart so think before you follow him.

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: December 18, 2008 07:02PM


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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: eesti ()
Date: December 19, 2008 04:49AM

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, eesti, I guess you agree also with the fact
> that the Buffalo Bills were rigbt to have J.P.
> Losman back trying to pass when he was sacked and
> fumbled the ball whereupon Shaun Ellis picked it
> up and ran in FOR THE WINNING TOUCHDOWN THAT THE
> JETS WOULD HAVE HAD TO WORK HARD TO OBTAIN AFTER A
> BILLS PUNT EVEN IF THE BILLS HAD RUN THE BALL AND
> GOT STUFFED.
> The problem with Ghotirule's logic is that he
> reasons like a "B" student whereas the rest of us
> reason like "A" students. The "B" student says
> simplistically, well, we had run the play all day
> and had had success SO WHY NOT DO IT AGAIN?
> Well, had the score been tied and/or it had been
> the regular part of the game or not at the end of
> the game, then, of course, you run the play that
> HAS GAINED YOU the most success.


> But the "A" students among us are trying to get it
> through your head that like the Bills-Jets
> situation, this was NOT the regular portion of the
> game. It was a situation where the Bills needed
> to keep possession and punt more than anything.
> IT WAS ALSO A SITUATION WHERE we had to obtain an
> 8 point lead so as a touchdown by the 49ers would
> not leave us with having to institute a drive of
> our own to either win or tie (depending on whether
> the 49ers went for 2 after they made a touchdown).
> We were in field goal range and had to stay in
> field goal range.
> In that situation, eesti, it does not make sense
> to pitch the ball back 5 yards thereby EVEN
> RISKING taking your kicker out of field goal range
> and THUS RISK LOSING THE VITAL THREE POINTS WE
> NEEDED TO ENSURE THAT WE WOULD NOT LOSE.
> So what if we GOT STUFFED? We then kick the field
> goal and force them to score a touchdown AND a 2
> point conversion TO EVEN TIE AND GO INTO
> OVERTIME.

> Let me give you some advice, eesti, Ghotirule is
> not that smart so think before you follow him.

Actually, believe it or not, some people are capable of forming their own opinions. Just because all you do it talk about "what we should have done", "what we did wrong", patting yourself on the back for being smarter than everyone else or pretending to pass hindsight off as foresight...doesn't make you right. You may be an "A" student and I'm sure your Mommy is very proud but I graduated a long time ago and am already living life...Not studying to prepare for it.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

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Re: A PITCHBACK at the outside of
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: December 19, 2008 01:56PM

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, believe it or not, some people are
> capable of forming their own opinions. Just
> because all you do it talk about "what we should
> have done", "what we did wrong", patting yourself
> on the back for being smarter than everyone else
> or pretending to pass hindsight off as
> foresight...doesn't make you right. You may be an
> "A" student and I'm sure your Mommy is very proud
> but I graduated a long time ago and am already
> living life...Not studying to prepare for it.

RESPONSE: I looked hard at the foregoing and failed to see any discussion of the fact that you don't strategize a game in the closing minutes the same way you do in the regular course of the game. So I guess you agree with Ghotirule that you should play the game regardless of the scoreboard and completely without any regard to strategy.

Secondly, since every comment on a past event is NECESSARILY a comment on SOMETHING THAT IS PAST, every comment can be labelled hindsight. But I bet if you had given the scenario that played out for both us and the Bills BEFORE BOTH GAMES, anyone, save you and Ghotirule who seem to think that there is no such thing as strategy in the game of football, would have said to the Bills "Don't pass in that situation," and to us "Don't pitch the ball back out of field goal range." What would you have called that?

Errr... you are making yourself look more foolish by the minute.

As for my age, I got my graduate degree in 1970 and my Doctorate in 1973, so you have again made a false assumption.

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