Livas scares me though. He is lighter then White was at 179pds. Saw 1 defender literally throw him to the ground with 1 hand. If he ever gets a solid shot........could get really uqly quick.

He will have no problems returning.

Its what he has done his whole life. He was a return man in college too. Much different situation than Pat White, Treasure.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Gates gives us what all you guys who didn't want us to get rid of Ginn kept talking about. That ability to stretch the field is HUGE!! Let's face it, Hartline just isn't fast enough to be a speed WR. If Gates can catch, I see him starting opposite Marshall before the season is over.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's face it, Hartline just isn't fast enough to be a speed
> WR. If Gates can catch, I see him starting
> opposite Marshall before the season is over.

I think Hartline is faster than people give him credit for though. The 1st game he managed to get behind the defense and score. Last night a good throw gets him another one. He is now in his pivitol 3rd year and should be more experienced. Hartline has matured physically too. The last couple of years, he looked like a boy and now he is a man.

I 100% agree with you, Twilley.

I think Hartline has a legitimate shot at 1,000 yards this season. Or atleast have a 15-18 ypc average.

Which would be huge for this offense.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

I expect solid contributes from Gates, but Livas may not even make the team.

Hartline is not superfast however fast enough to consistantly get behind opposing defenses. He has solid hands however he doesnt have the ups to be a superstar.

He should be a solid contribution to this offense and due to who else we have on our team average around 600 yards this season.

I just don't see us throwing it to him more than 6 or 7 times a game.

Bess will be the wr with 800 to 1k yards while Marshall will post over 1k.

Keep in mind Bush will be recieving alot of screen and flat pass's.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He will have no problems returning.
>
> Its what he has done his whole life. He was a
> return man in college too. Much different
> situation than Pat White, Treasure.


I hear you. People counted Zack Thomas out as well because of his size. Maybe a year in the NFL will net him 10-15 more pounds of muscle too. Our Special teams was a huge problem for us the Past few years. Glad to see us getting better there as well for sure.

No doubt on the Gates effect. Livas, not so sure. I wonder if there is even a spot for him on the 53. I like that he showed poise returning punts, and def think that he can earn his place by continuing to take care of the ball and possibly break a few more runs. But, one botched catch or hamstring pull could spell the end. Hope he lights it up and becomes our dynamic returner. Marlon dropping wide open TDs in stride helps Livas' cause.

ghotirule Wrote:

>
> Yup he will put on some weight. Hopefully not
> lose a lot of speed. Looks like a solid returner.
> He doesn't run afraid like Ginn did.


BIG 10-4 on that one! Ginn was a major pussy. I bet he drank milk and shed hair too.

If ginn had some balls he would had been a great player for us.

I agree he was definetely scared of contact. Big time.

I think the key combo is the Gates-Marshall-Bush effect.

With those 3 guys on the field at the same time teams will have a difficult time putting a skill guy on all 3 of them.

Gates is getting by double coverage with a couple yards of seperation. That is scary fast.

Bush makes a checkdown dangerous...forcing them to sit a quick guy down low.

Marshall should clean up.

Stick Bess on the field too and we are dangerous.


But as was pointed out...it all depends on Henne. He has to get the ball to them.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the key combo is the Gates-Marshall-Bush
> effect.
>
> With those 3 guys on the field at the same time
> teams will have a difficult time putting a skill
> guy on all 3 of them.
>
> Gates is getting by double coverage with a couple
> yards of seperation. That is scary fast.
>
> Bush makes a checkdown dangerous...forcing them to
> sit a quick guy down low.
>
> Marshall should clean up.
>
> Stick Bess on the field too and we are dangerous.
>

And you're just proving one of my points I've made repeatedly: Hartline's role on this team is very limited. If Gates can catch and be physical (2 things Ginn had trouble with), then logic dictates that you start him opposite Marshall. With Bess in the slot, that leaves Hartline as the #4 guy. Seems a shame for a guy who's so reliable. Call it the Camarillo effect. The same thing happened to him!

I like Hartline...great character, hands, a knack for getting open...but you are right.

He is not exceptionally fast, or big, or shifty. So yeah...he is the #4 guy on the field.

To be honest...I would prefer Hartline to Fasanno.


How about a formation that includes:

Gates, Marshall, Bess, Hartline, and Bush?

I know 'realistically' that isn't going to be the main starting group. But I would like to see more 4 WR sets....especially if Fasano doesn't increase his production.

But, yeah, Gates has to be on the field. It opens the run game, opens the middle, and softens the underneath stuff.

I'd be interested in seeing that lineup. Because of his size and physicality, Marshall actually takes more of a TE-like role in that formation.

Looks like Clyde outperformed Livas in returns last week.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gates gives us what all you guys who didn't want
> us to get rid of Ginn kept talking about. That
> ability to stretch the field is HUGE!! Let's face
> it, Hartline just isn't fast enough to be a speed
> WR. If Gates can catch, I see him starting
> opposite Marshall before the season is over.


There is way too much for Gates to learn before that can happen. It is a huge adjustment for college WRs making the transition to the NFL. Most of them do not run an NFL route tree college. Most are not used to press coverage. And virtually none of them are used to running option routes, which are the bread and butter of NFL passing games. In order to be good at option routes, a receiver needs to be able to read defenses, and that takes time. And these adjustments are going to be even bigger for Gates, coming from a Division II program.

Once Camarillo was traded, Hartline was the only WR on the roster who actually knew all of the assignments for each of the 3 WR positions. That is a huge advantage. Marshall was only used as an X, and Bess was used as a Y and X. Hartline could line up at all 3. As a rookie, Gates will be lucky to learn one position. And even Sparano commented that as a rookie they will keep Gates' assignments simple, focusing on routes that best utilize his speed.

Hartline has led the team in yards per reception and yards after catch each of his 2 seasons on the team. For a team that needs more big plays, they aren't likely to look to phase out the guy who has been their best big play WR the last 2 years. Hartline was on pace for a 65 catch, 800 yard season last year. And that is an excellent season for a guy on the same team as Bess and Marshall, as those two get way more targets than anyone else. I think Hartline is underrated by many.

Hennes inability to pass it to him well complete it to him is the main reaso nwhy he hasnt been bigger, he is always behind coverage and Henne always miss's the deep ball to him.